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> It's not just Putin. Every Russian president hated NATO expansion. Of course Russia and Russian presidents hate NATO, it stops them conducting imperialistic

by _kbh_ 3y ago

> It's not just Putin. Every Russian president hated NATO expansion. Of course Russia and Russian presidents hate NATO, it stops them conducting imperialistic wars against the countries that they wish to subjugate. No one should care what Russia thinks, it's clear not allowing countries like Georgia and Ukraine into NATO just causes Russia to invade them anyway.

EGreg 3y ago
[flagged]
- _kbh_ 3y ago
  > Don't you see that each side can say the exact same thing? As an intellectual, you have to be able to step outside yourself and look at the bigger picture. You can't be simply caught up in the mob's passions. There are no two sides on this, theres one side that is. - Raping and torturing children in Ukraine [1] - Commiting Genocide in Ukraine [2] - Commiting Crimes agianst Humainty in Ukraine [3] The other side is defending itself from a brutal imperlaistic regime that is trying to erase it off the map > When the shoe is on the other foot, e.g. the USA blockaded Cuba during the Cuban Missile Crisis, we violated international law and also your principle that "sovereign countries can make whatever security arrangements they want, with no consequences". Obviously that principle is dangerous (just like "anyone can have a gun"), because it just allows more escalation to happen until things boil over. I support Kennedy for establishing a direct line with Khrustchev and both sides taking nukes off neigboring countries (USA from Turkey, and USSR from Cuba). Cuba had every right to ask USSR for help, as USA was belligerent and the year before sponsored the failed Bay of Pigs Invasion to try to invade and regime-change Cuba. Also look at what USA had done to Haiti... they occupied, regime-changed, destroyed their democracy and literally enslaved the population[1]. at the time, Cuba didn't want that. Even so, Kennedy was right to call out Khrustchev and de-escalate with Cuba. To this day, however, the UN votes overwhelmingly (more overwhelmingly than condemning Russia's invasion) for USA to end its embargo on Cuba [2], but we don't, even though Cuba presents no threat. America did something that was wrong 60 years ago does not preclude that Russia is doing terirble things for terrible reasons right now. > Dialogue and de-escalation is always preferable to justification of escalation and expansion. Tell that to the Russians who just continually do terrible things when people try and de-escalate. The Russians will only de-escalate when they have a foot to their throat or a rope around there neck. > I mean, come on, which country would be viewed as the greatest threat to democracy and peace? Well, we know which by a large margin -- because polls have been conducted worldwide [3], [4] so you can't say it's "just" Russia or "just" Putin or "just" the Islamic world, etc. Whats this cost to do with Russias brutal invasion of Ukraine? your whataboutism is commendable but ultimately useless. > The reality is simple: USA wanted this war to happen, to weaken its geopolitical rivals. Wow so Russia can just pull out of the war then right? so it doesn't fall into Americas trap?. > Also, we know already from most previous invasions of USSR/Russia that they were actually baited into invading [8] [9] -- the goal isn't to justify what they're doing, but to say that we need to stop our own provocations, and the first step is to acknowledge them [10] and the CIA's role in them [11] Man Russias really stupid they keep falling for the same trap, its like they just want to keep invading countries doesn't it? I have the strangest feeling no source will convince you, cause you as an 'intellectual' appear to have aligned your brain entirely with what Russian propaganda try's to push [1] https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/russian-troops-raped-tortured-children-ukraine-un-panel-says-rcna49168 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/russian-troops-raped-tort... [2] https://www.usip.org/publications/2022/09/russia-committing-genocide-ukraine https://www.usip.org/publications/2022/09/russia-committing-... [3] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-60690688 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-60690688
  - EGreg 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - _kbh_ 3y ago
      [flagged]
  - EGreg 3y ago
    America did something that was wrong 60 years ago does not preclude that Russia is doing terirble things for terrible reasons right now. No, not 60 years ago. Now. They are embargoing Cuba now and UN votes overwhelmingly to condemn them every year, we US citizens just don’t care and our media doesn’t show it. But as far as Kennedy’s reaction to nuclear missiles on Cuba - no, what he did was RIGHT! His “peace speech” convinced the Russians to establish a direct line and de-escalate LIKE ADULTS. All the lies were exposed and dealt with (such as US missiles in Turkey). That is GOOD and I WISH that Biden and Putin would have done it this time. Kennedy gave a stark warning in his speech: * Above all, while defending our own vital interests, nuclear powers must avert those confrontations which bring an adversary to a choice of either a humiliating retreat or a nuclear war. To adopt that kind of course in the nuclear age would be evidence only of the bankruptcy of our policy--or of a collective death-wish for the world.* https://www.jfklibrary.org/archives/other-resources/john-f-kennedy-speeches/american-university-19630610 https://www.jfklibrary.org/archives/other-resources/john-f-k... Our administration’s explicit policy IS EXACTLY THE FLOUTING OF THIS WARNING and they push anyone who suggests peace to shut up and retract it: https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/oct/25/democrats-joe-biden-ukraine-war-russia-letter https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/oct/25/democrats-jo... Tell that to the Russians who just continually do terrible things when people try and de-escalate. The Russians will only de-escalate when they have a foot to their throat or a rope around there neck. That’s exactly what every side in every war said, ever. “Those Arabs only understand power.” “Those Red Indians have no honor and they kill women and children” — it is right there in the Declaration of Independence, which I read yesterday on July 4th. This type of nationalistic thinking about “the russians” or “the arabs” is a TRAP. And happens that the people who pay the price are the ones in the proxy war country 3000 miles away, not us. So our public doesnt care. Whats this cost to do with Russias brutal invasion of Ukraine? your whataboutism is commendable but ultimately useless. Everything to do with it. If you have a playground bully going around punching people, or trying to flip all their friends against them, someone is bound to react. If they react, it is not “whataboutism” to point out what they are reacting TO, and hkw the bully did it elsewhere. It is explanation so we can understand how things look outside the NATO bubble and how to end it. Otherwise 5 years from now you’ll be saying the same about China. But the concerted effort is to put the word “unprovoked and unjustified” behind the words “invasion of Ukraine”. Do you think it is an accident that this phrase is repeated faithfully on official websites and all mainstream media? It is coordinated. Same as “weapons of mass destruction” and “hacking the election” and “they hate us for our freedoms”. Stop and think about it for a moment! Do you not see a pattern? > The reality is simple: USA wanted this war to happen, to weaken its geopolitical rivals. Wow so Russia can just pull out of the war then right? so it doesn't fall into Americas trap?. Sure, they would have if Naftali Bennett was allowed to conclude a peace agreeemnt JUST LIKE NIKOLAS SARKOZY DID in the Russo-Georgia war. The question to you is WHY DID THE US BLOCK IT? Answer that directly, don’t dodge! Sure, Russia could just allow US to go 3000 miles away, flip all its neighbors against it, put nuclear missiles aimed at Russia on its borders, successfully regime-change and flip everyone against Russian speakers. Heck, why doesn’t Russia and China just let USA build bases all around them, surround them economically, militarily, after all NATO is just a defensive alliance. Any other thing — like diplomacy - is unacceptable. Whenever someone insists that ONLY fantasy scenarios can end this war — and kills PEACE AGREEME TS — we know they don’t act in good faith. The worst part is, the fantasy scenario is exactly the one Kennedy warned about will bring about the destruction of humanity. And our leaders have it as an explicit policy! It’s a game of chicken where they are actively chasing down the cornered animal with larger and larger escalations until it reacts. And we are all held hostage. Why ?

by _kbh_ 3y ago

EGreg 3y ago

[flagged]

_kbh_ 3y ago
> Don't you see that each side can say the exact same thing? As an intellectual, you have to be able to step outside yourself and look at the bigger picture. You can't be simply caught up in the mob's passions. There are no two sides on this, theres one side that is. - Raping and torturing children in Ukraine [1] - Commiting Genocide in Ukraine [2] - Commiting Crimes agianst Humainty in Ukraine [3] The other side is defending itself from a brutal imperlaistic regime that is trying to erase it off the map > When the shoe is on the other foot, e.g. the USA blockaded Cuba during the Cuban Missile Crisis, we violated international law and also your principle that "sovereign countries can make whatever security arrangements they want, with no consequences". Obviously that principle is dangerous (just like "anyone can have a gun"), because it just allows more escalation to happen until things boil over. I support Kennedy for establishing a direct line with Khrustchev and both sides taking nukes off neigboring countries (USA from Turkey, and USSR from Cuba). Cuba had every right to ask USSR for help, as USA was belligerent and the year before sponsored the failed Bay of Pigs Invasion to try to invade and regime-change Cuba. Also look at what USA had done to Haiti... they occupied, regime-changed, destroyed their democracy and literally enslaved the population[1]. at the time, Cuba didn't want that. Even so, Kennedy was right to call out Khrustchev and de-escalate with Cuba. To this day, however, the UN votes overwhelmingly (more overwhelmingly than condemning Russia's invasion) for USA to end its embargo on Cuba [2], but we don't, even though Cuba presents no threat. America did something that was wrong 60 years ago does not preclude that Russia is doing terirble things for terrible reasons right now. > Dialogue and de-escalation is always preferable to justification of escalation and expansion. Tell that to the Russians who just continually do terrible things when people try and de-escalate. The Russians will only de-escalate when they have a foot to their throat or a rope around there neck. > I mean, come on, which country would be viewed as the greatest threat to democracy and peace? Well, we know which by a large margin -- because polls have been conducted worldwide [3], [4] so you can't say it's "just" Russia or "just" Putin or "just" the Islamic world, etc. Whats this cost to do with Russias brutal invasion of Ukraine? your whataboutism is commendable but ultimately useless. > The reality is simple: USA wanted this war to happen, to weaken its geopolitical rivals. Wow so Russia can just pull out of the war then right? so it doesn't fall into Americas trap?. > Also, we know already from most previous invasions of USSR/Russia that they were actually baited into invading [8] [9] -- the goal isn't to justify what they're doing, but to say that we need to stop our own provocations, and the first step is to acknowledge them [10] and the CIA's role in them [11] Man Russias really stupid they keep falling for the same trap, its like they just want to keep invading countries doesn't it? I have the strangest feeling no source will convince you, cause you as an 'intellectual' appear to have aligned your brain entirely with what Russian propaganda try's to push [1] https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/russian-troops-raped-tortured-children-ukraine-un-panel-says-rcna49168 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/russian-troops-raped-tort... [2] https://www.usip.org/publications/2022/09/russia-committing-genocide-ukraine https://www.usip.org/publications/2022/09/russia-committing-... [3] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-60690688 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-60690688
- EGreg 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - _kbh_ 3y ago
    [flagged]
- EGreg 3y ago
  America did something that was wrong 60 years ago does not preclude that Russia is doing terirble things for terrible reasons right now. No, not 60 years ago. Now. They are embargoing Cuba now and UN votes overwhelmingly to condemn them every year, we US citizens just don’t care and our media doesn’t show it. But as far as Kennedy’s reaction to nuclear missiles on Cuba - no, what he did was RIGHT! His “peace speech” convinced the Russians to establish a direct line and de-escalate LIKE ADULTS. All the lies were exposed and dealt with (such as US missiles in Turkey). That is GOOD and I WISH that Biden and Putin would have done it this time. Kennedy gave a stark warning in his speech: * Above all, while defending our own vital interests, nuclear powers must avert those confrontations which bring an adversary to a choice of either a humiliating retreat or a nuclear war. To adopt that kind of course in the nuclear age would be evidence only of the bankruptcy of our policy--or of a collective death-wish for the world.* https://www.jfklibrary.org/archives/other-resources/john-f-kennedy-speeches/american-university-19630610 https://www.jfklibrary.org/archives/other-resources/john-f-k... Our administration’s explicit policy IS EXACTLY THE FLOUTING OF THIS WARNING and they push anyone who suggests peace to shut up and retract it: https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/oct/25/democrats-joe-biden-ukraine-war-russia-letter https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/oct/25/democrats-jo... Tell that to the Russians who just continually do terrible things when people try and de-escalate. The Russians will only de-escalate when they have a foot to their throat or a rope around there neck. That’s exactly what every side in every war said, ever. “Those Arabs only understand power.” “Those Red Indians have no honor and they kill women and children” — it is right there in the Declaration of Independence, which I read yesterday on July 4th. This type of nationalistic thinking about “the russians” or “the arabs” is a TRAP. And happens that the people who pay the price are the ones in the proxy war country 3000 miles away, not us. So our public doesnt care. Whats this cost to do with Russias brutal invasion of Ukraine? your whataboutism is commendable but ultimately useless. Everything to do with it. If you have a playground bully going around punching people, or trying to flip all their friends against them, someone is bound to react. If they react, it is not “whataboutism” to point out what they are reacting TO, and hkw the bully did it elsewhere. It is explanation so we can understand how things look outside the NATO bubble and how to end it. Otherwise 5 years from now you’ll be saying the same about China. But the concerted effort is to put the word “unprovoked and unjustified” behind the words “invasion of Ukraine”. Do you think it is an accident that this phrase is repeated faithfully on official websites and all mainstream media? It is coordinated. Same as “weapons of mass destruction” and “hacking the election” and “they hate us for our freedoms”. Stop and think about it for a moment! Do you not see a pattern? > The reality is simple: USA wanted this war to happen, to weaken its geopolitical rivals. Wow so Russia can just pull out of the war then right? so it doesn't fall into Americas trap?. Sure, they would have if Naftali Bennett was allowed to conclude a peace agreeemnt JUST LIKE NIKOLAS SARKOZY DID in the Russo-Georgia war. The question to you is WHY DID THE US BLOCK IT? Answer that directly, don’t dodge! Sure, Russia could just allow US to go 3000 miles away, flip all its neighbors against it, put nuclear missiles aimed at Russia on its borders, successfully regime-change and flip everyone against Russian speakers. Heck, why doesn’t Russia and China just let USA build bases all around them, surround them economically, militarily, after all NATO is just a defensive alliance. Any other thing — like diplomacy - is unacceptable. Whenever someone insists that ONLY fantasy scenarios can end this war — and kills PEACE AGREEME TS — we know they don’t act in good faith. The worst part is, the fantasy scenario is exactly the one Kennedy warned about will bring about the destruction of humanity. And our leaders have it as an explicit policy! It’s a game of chicken where they are actively chasing down the cornered animal with larger and larger escalations until it reacts. And we are all held hostage. Why ?