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Both sides see the same thing. Do you think Russia thinks that appeasement is good, and that they didn't embolden NATO by allowing its enlargement? Do you think

by EGreg 3y ago

Both sides see the same thing. Do you think Russia thinks that appeasement is good, and that they didn't embolden NATO by allowing its enlargement? Do you think they think of NATO members' bombing of Yugoslavia, destroying Libya, etc. or carving off territories as "one-offs"[1] and any response is completely unprovoked? The Western media and governments have systematically all put the word "unprovoked" in front of Russia's invasion of Ukraine, but that word does a lot of work. It basically begs the question. It's not just Putin. Every Russian president hated NATO expansion. Boris Yeltsin angrily withdrew from treaties when NATO expanded, having protested it all the way [2]. And Boris Yeltsin did so much of US bidding that he was effectively a Manchurian Candidate [3] [4] [5] but that still wasn't enough for the USA, they told him to go pound sand with regard to NATO expansion. Medvedev invaded Georgia in 2008, when its president started making moves to get into NATO. Replace Putin, and you'll very likely get a bigger hawk in Russia. The same works in USA ... after Kennedy was assassinated, LBJ went on a bombing spree in south Asia, bombing Laos more than any country has ever been bombed [6], in a secret "special military operation" that killed huge numbers of people 3000 miles away, motivated by the "domino theory" of stopping Communism (similar to "denazification", except it was half a planet away and literally presented no threat to USA). Recall also that Putin and Russia did everything they could within the law to protest and try to prevent the US invasion of Iraq. Putin was the first to call George W Bush after 9/11 and offered support and joint counter-terrorism activities, which they did do. And yet it was George W Bush who pushed for Ukraine and Georgia to be in NATO, in 2008 [7] even though the population of Ukraine did NOT want to be in NATO [8] NATO expansion to China now is just continuing more of the same. You can see it in real-time now. USA already has economic inter-dependency with China. What we the people have to do (in USA and China and Russia) is require our politicians to record all their negotiations on video, and we will then be able to see how our public servants fail us, before it is too late. It will create an incentive to act in good faith, like bodycams for cops. ("Oops, sorry, all our cameras malfunctioned that day" would be extremely suspicious.) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_independence_precedent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_independence_precedent [2] https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2018-03-16/nato-expansion-what-yeltsin-heard https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2018... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_Russian_constitutional_crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_Russian_constitutional_cr... [4] https://archive.org/details/TimeUSMeddlingOnRussia https://archive.org/details/TimeUSMeddlingOnRussia [5] https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2022/03/22/1087654279/how-shock-therapy-created-russian-oligarchs-and-paved-the-path-for-putin https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2022/03/22/1087654279/how... [6] https://www.history.com/news/laos-most-bombed-country-vietnam-war https://www.history.com/news/laos-most-bombed-country-vietna... [7] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-nato-ukraine-bush/bush-vows-to-press-for-ukraine-georgia-in-nato-idUSL0141706220080401 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-nato-ukraine-bush/bush-vo... [8] https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2010/03/29/ukraine-says-no-to-nato/ https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2010/03/29/ukraine-says-n...

_kbh_ 3y ago
> It's not just Putin. Every Russian president hated NATO expansion. Of course Russia and Russian presidents hate NATO, it stops them conducting imperialistic wars against the countries that they wish to subjugate. No one should care what Russia thinks, it's clear not allowing countries like Georgia and Ukraine into NATO just causes Russia to invade them anyway.
- EGreg 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - _kbh_ 3y ago
    > Don't you see that each side can say the exact same thing? As an intellectual, you have to be able to step outside yourself and look at the bigger picture. You can't be simply caught up in the mob's passions. There are no two sides on this, theres one side that is. - Raping and torturing children in Ukraine [1] - Commiting Genocide in Ukraine [2] - Commiting Crimes agianst Humainty in Ukraine [3] The other side is defending itself from a brutal imperlaistic regime that is trying to erase it off the map > When the shoe is on the other foot, e.g. the USA blockaded Cuba during the Cuban Missile Crisis, we violated international law and also your principle that "sovereign countries can make whatever security arrangements they want, with no consequences". Obviously that principle is dangerous (just like "anyone can have a gun"), because it just allows more escalation to happen until things boil over. I support Kennedy for establishing a direct line with Khrustchev and both sides taking nukes off neigboring countries (USA from Turkey, and USSR from Cuba). Cuba had every right to ask USSR for help, as USA was belligerent and the year before sponsored the failed Bay of Pigs Invasion to try to invade and regime-change Cuba. Also look at what USA had done to Haiti... they occupied, regime-changed, destroyed their democracy and literally enslaved the population[1]. at the time, Cuba didn't want that. Even so, Kennedy was right to call out Khrustchev and de-escalate with Cuba. To this day, however, the UN votes overwhelmingly (more overwhelmingly than condemning Russia's invasion) for USA to end its embargo on Cuba [2], but we don't, even though Cuba presents no threat. America did something that was wrong 60 years ago does not preclude that Russia is doing terirble things for terrible reasons right now. > Dialogue and de-escalation is always preferable to justification of escalation and expansion. Tell that to the Russians who just continually do terrible things when people try and de-escalate. The Russians will only de-escalate when they have a foot to their throat or a rope around there neck. > I mean, come on, which country would be viewed as the greatest threat to democracy and peace? Well, we know which by a large margin -- because polls have been conducted worldwide [3], [4] so you can't say it's "just" Russia or "just" Putin or "just" the Islamic world, etc. Whats this cost to do with Russias brutal invasion of Ukraine? your whataboutism is commendable but ultimately useless. > The reality is simple: USA wanted this war to happen, to weaken its geopolitical rivals. Wow so Russia can just pull out of the war then right? so it doesn't fall into Americas trap?. > Also, we know already from most previous invasions of USSR/Russia that they were actually baited into invading [8] [9] -- the goal isn't to justify what they're doing, but to say that we need to stop our own provocations, and the first step is to acknowledge them [10] and the CIA's role in them [11] Man Russias really stupid they keep falling for the same trap, its like they just want to keep invading countries doesn't it? I have the strangest feeling no source will convince you, cause you as an 'intellectual' appear to have aligned your brain entirely with what Russian propaganda try's to push [1] https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/russian-troops-raped-tortured-children-ukraine-un-panel-says-rcna49168 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/russian-troops-raped-tort... [2] https://www.usip.org/publications/2022/09/russia-committing-genocide-ukraine https://www.usip.org/publications/2022/09/russia-committing-... [3] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-60690688 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-60690688

by EGreg 3y ago

_kbh_ 3y ago

> It's not just Putin. Every Russian president hated NATO expansion. Of course Russia and Russian presidents hate NATO, it stops them conducting imperialistic wars against the countries that they wish to subjugate. No one should care what Russia thinks, it's clear not allowing countries like Georgia and Ukraine into NATO just causes Russia to invade them anyway.

EGreg 3y ago
[flagged]
- _kbh_ 3y ago
  > Don't you see that each side can say the exact same thing? As an intellectual, you have to be able to step outside yourself and look at the bigger picture. You can't be simply caught up in the mob's passions. There are no two sides on this, theres one side that is. - Raping and torturing children in Ukraine [1] - Commiting Genocide in Ukraine [2] - Commiting Crimes agianst Humainty in Ukraine [3] The other side is defending itself from a brutal imperlaistic regime that is trying to erase it off the map > When the shoe is on the other foot, e.g. the USA blockaded Cuba during the Cuban Missile Crisis, we violated international law and also your principle that "sovereign countries can make whatever security arrangements they want, with no consequences". Obviously that principle is dangerous (just like "anyone can have a gun"), because it just allows more escalation to happen until things boil over. I support Kennedy for establishing a direct line with Khrustchev and both sides taking nukes off neigboring countries (USA from Turkey, and USSR from Cuba). Cuba had every right to ask USSR for help, as USA was belligerent and the year before sponsored the failed Bay of Pigs Invasion to try to invade and regime-change Cuba. Also look at what USA had done to Haiti... they occupied, regime-changed, destroyed their democracy and literally enslaved the population[1]. at the time, Cuba didn't want that. Even so, Kennedy was right to call out Khrustchev and de-escalate with Cuba. To this day, however, the UN votes overwhelmingly (more overwhelmingly than condemning Russia's invasion) for USA to end its embargo on Cuba [2], but we don't, even though Cuba presents no threat. America did something that was wrong 60 years ago does not preclude that Russia is doing terirble things for terrible reasons right now. > Dialogue and de-escalation is always preferable to justification of escalation and expansion. Tell that to the Russians who just continually do terrible things when people try and de-escalate. The Russians will only de-escalate when they have a foot to their throat or a rope around there neck. > I mean, come on, which country would be viewed as the greatest threat to democracy and peace? Well, we know which by a large margin -- because polls have been conducted worldwide [3], [4] so you can't say it's "just" Russia or "just" Putin or "just" the Islamic world, etc. Whats this cost to do with Russias brutal invasion of Ukraine? your whataboutism is commendable but ultimately useless. > The reality is simple: USA wanted this war to happen, to weaken its geopolitical rivals. Wow so Russia can just pull out of the war then right? so it doesn't fall into Americas trap?. > Also, we know already from most previous invasions of USSR/Russia that they were actually baited into invading [8] [9] -- the goal isn't to justify what they're doing, but to say that we need to stop our own provocations, and the first step is to acknowledge them [10] and the CIA's role in them [11] Man Russias really stupid they keep falling for the same trap, its like they just want to keep invading countries doesn't it? I have the strangest feeling no source will convince you, cause you as an 'intellectual' appear to have aligned your brain entirely with what Russian propaganda try's to push [1] https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/russian-troops-raped-tortured-children-ukraine-un-panel-says-rcna49168 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/russian-troops-raped-tort... [2] https://www.usip.org/publications/2022/09/russia-committing-genocide-ukraine https://www.usip.org/publications/2022/09/russia-committing-... [3] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-60690688 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-60690688