5 ms·

I think it's inevitable that at some point some legislation like the OSB will pass in most western countries. It's going to drive the people who have the know

I think it's inevitable that at some point some legislation like the OSB will pass in most western countries. It's going to drive the people who have the know how underground, and anyone engaging in protecting their privacy will be considered a criminal. We're already creeping toward that IMO.

blitzar 3y ago
I think it's inevitable that at some point some legislation like the OSB will pass in most western countries. It's going to be no different at all from the current situation.
- PrimeMcFly 3y ago
  > It's going to be no different at all from the current situation. That's not true at all. If OSB is passed, things will be quite different in the UK afterward.
  - blitzar 3y ago
    The snoopers charter already exists, ISPs already have to report your web browsing to the Government database. For everything else there are foreign agencies who are not limited by uk legislation.
    - PrimeMcFly 3y ago
      The issue is that they can't defeat encryption currently, and wish to. Encryption can hide web browsing and a lot more, which they don't like.
- miohtama 3y ago
  What would happen in the ideal world: - All online messenger providers (Whatsapp, Signal, Telegram) e.g. withdraw from the UK market. Meta and Google gave a taste for this after Canadian link law. - UK needs to come up with a crappy homebrew messenger ecosystem no one uses. Maybe a messenger.gov.uk? - People download applications with privacy and sideload them to their mobile phones, keep going with their business as usual - The number of childs protected or caught pedophiles stays unchanged - UK parliament members who proposed the bill will look like idiots, not getting re-elected - The "compliance" companies who promoted these solutions, as it's driven by commercial interest that guides the political discussion, go bankcrupt However I remain doubtful if we have this ideal scenario.
  - blitzar 3y ago
    - UK parliament members who proposed the bill will look like idiots, but get re-elected anyway Some things never change.
  - b112 3y ago
    UK parliament members who proposed the bill will look like idiots, not getting re-elected No one will lose re-election over a technical or scientific issue such as this. 99.9% of the public can't understand the position, the discussion, and will only listen to what fluff websites, and the parties tell them. Now, is any party going to take up a "soft on pedophiles!" position? Because that's how it will be played...
    - blitzar 3y ago
      Haw haw the honourable member is AGAINST ONLINE SAFETY. Its a bit like trying to vote against the Patriot Act.
  - sneak 3y ago
    Closing the sideloading hole on Android then becomes the next step. It's already a nonissue on the most popular device. Eventually the sale of devices that don't include cryptographic controls to prevent terrorists from misusing them to evade terrorist surveillance will be outlawed.
    - jkaplowitz 3y ago
      In the EU (which I know no longer includes the UK), both Apple and Google will have to allow sideloading in their operating systems by early 2024, because they* are expected to be designated as gatekeepers under the new Digital Markets Act no later than early September 2023, and after being designated they’ll have six months to comply. So the feature to sideload will continue to exist in Android and will be added to iOS, although they could choose to enable it only in the EU or to block it in the UK. *If you choose to fact-check this, be aware that technically the European Commission will be designating Alphabet, Google’s parent company, rather than one of the multiple subsidiaries with Google in its name. So the official EU communications about this may not mention the word Google.
xeyownt 3y ago
I don't see why it is inevitable. In fact, I very see the opposite. Passing this kind of legislation will kill e-commerce for sure, so it will never happen.
- blitzar 3y ago
  kill; e-commerce, in store payment terminals, online banking, all https, email, biometric passports etc. It would be a return to the pre internet era, so probably is the will of the people and on form for the UK. I kind of hope they pass it then realise what it actually means.
  - pjc50 3y ago
    It's not going to be enforced that way even if that's what the text says. Although it might get spicy if one of the megacorps decides the legal risk is real and withdraws from the UK market.
    - blitzar 3y ago
      If it is implemented as per the legislation, the UK would need to be disconnected from the global internet, and most activity economic or otherwise would cease overnight. I should really retract my original position, things in the UK would be very different. Honestly, it kind of needs to happen properly, otherwise people will never learn. Allowing these half baked pieces of legislation to pass and then not implementing them except for some edge case allows the idiots who write it and promote it to claim they were right all along.
      - mnw21cam 3y ago
        There's a general "bad" when law are enacted and then not enforced, especially if it's a law that most people would naturally break because it's a silly law. It allows the authorities to persecute chosen individuals while not actually achieving anything that the law as written looks like it should be trying to achieve. And this is a silly law. Everyone will break it, every time they use an encrypted communication, which is pretty-much every single thing one does on the internet these days. It's a perfect recipe for the authorities to let everyone carry on as normal, then when they want to crush someone they're certain to find some law that they have broken like this one. We should be throwing out such laws.
zorrolovsky 3y ago
Defeatism adds to the problem and it doesn't bring solutions. If we're already accepting that idiotic laws will pass, obviously they will. Let's call this what it is: a myopic and totalitarian law created by misinformed and clueless politicians. Let's fight it tooth and nail until we bury it.
tenpies 3y ago
My hope is that some comparatively insignificant Western country passes it first, makes international news when it cripples its own technological capacity and infrastructure, and then that becomes the cautionary tale. My money is on Canada. The Trudeau Liberals passed their first of three internet control and censorship bills, C-18, and it has already backfired stupendously. It's quite similiar to Australia's similiar bill to force some companies to pay for linking to news content, but the Liberals saw that and thought "we should try it too!". Same result, Google basically said "no problem, we won't link to news in Canada". However, unlike Australia, the Canadian Liberals are doubling down. New tax payer-funded subsidies for Canadian news are already being discussed to make up for the lost revenue the legislation caused. The Liberal-funded media is also trying to paint this as evil greedy foreign capitalist technology companies refusing to pay their fair share for exploiting Canadian news companies. But that's why my money is on Canada. It has the perfect blend of incompetent leadership, empowered by another party that helps them pass any legislation no matter what, and constituents that are largely apathetic to anything that happens.
- rainonmoon 3y ago
  Don't worry, Australia is doubling down too. Our entire legislative board around tech and the internet at the moment is chock full of draconian shit like this.
- BLKNSLVR 3y ago
  Australia is half-fucked already, and will be completely fucked when the current opposition get back into Government (they're the ones who initiated the half-fucked status when they were in government, unfortunately with no resistance from the opposition at the time). Raid warrants are already being signed off based on the tiny window into an IP address' life provided by legislated metadata retention. And no further actual police work is done on backgrounding the persons or households involved before choosing to suspend their rights.
pieter_mj 3y ago
It will pass now. It's a concerted effort as the same laws are passing in the EU as well.

blitzar 3y ago

I think it's inevitable that at some point some legislation like the OSB will pass in most western countries. It's going to be no different at all from the current situation.

PrimeMcFly 3y ago
> It's going to be no different at all from the current situation. That's not true at all. If OSB is passed, things will be quite different in the UK afterward.
- blitzar 3y ago
  The snoopers charter already exists, ISPs already have to report your web browsing to the Government database. For everything else there are foreign agencies who are not limited by uk legislation.
  - PrimeMcFly 3y ago
    The issue is that they can't defeat encryption currently, and wish to. Encryption can hide web browsing and a lot more, which they don't like.
miohtama 3y ago
What would happen in the ideal world: - All online messenger providers (Whatsapp, Signal, Telegram) e.g. withdraw from the UK market. Meta and Google gave a taste for this after Canadian link law. - UK needs to come up with a crappy homebrew messenger ecosystem no one uses. Maybe a messenger.gov.uk? - People download applications with privacy and sideload them to their mobile phones, keep going with their business as usual - The number of childs protected or caught pedophiles stays unchanged - UK parliament members who proposed the bill will look like idiots, not getting re-elected - The "compliance" companies who promoted these solutions, as it's driven by commercial interest that guides the political discussion, go bankcrupt However I remain doubtful if we have this ideal scenario.
- blitzar 3y ago
  - UK parliament members who proposed the bill will look like idiots, but get re-elected anyway Some things never change.
- b112 3y ago
  UK parliament members who proposed the bill will look like idiots, not getting re-elected No one will lose re-election over a technical or scientific issue such as this. 99.9% of the public can't understand the position, the discussion, and will only listen to what fluff websites, and the parties tell them. Now, is any party going to take up a "soft on pedophiles!" position? Because that's how it will be played...
  - blitzar 3y ago
    Haw haw the honourable member is AGAINST ONLINE SAFETY. Its a bit like trying to vote against the Patriot Act.
- sneak 3y ago
  Closing the sideloading hole on Android then becomes the next step. It's already a nonissue on the most popular device. Eventually the sale of devices that don't include cryptographic controls to prevent terrorists from misusing them to evade terrorist surveillance will be outlawed.
  - jkaplowitz 3y ago
    In the EU (which I know no longer includes the UK), both Apple and Google will have to allow sideloading in their operating systems by early 2024, because they* are expected to be designated as gatekeepers under the new Digital Markets Act no later than early September 2023, and after being designated they’ll have six months to comply. So the feature to sideload will continue to exist in Android and will be added to iOS, although they could choose to enable it only in the EU or to block it in the UK. *If you choose to fact-check this, be aware that technically the European Commission will be designating Alphabet, Google’s parent company, rather than one of the multiple subsidiaries with Google in its name. So the official EU communications about this may not mention the word Google.

xeyownt 3y ago

I don't see why it is inevitable. In fact, I very see the opposite. Passing this kind of legislation will kill e-commerce for sure, so it will never happen.

blitzar 3y ago
kill; e-commerce, in store payment terminals, online banking, all https, email, biometric passports etc. It would be a return to the pre internet era, so probably is the will of the people and on form for the UK. I kind of hope they pass it then realise what it actually means.
- pjc50 3y ago
  It's not going to be enforced that way even if that's what the text says. Although it might get spicy if one of the megacorps decides the legal risk is real and withdraws from the UK market.
  - blitzar 3y ago
    If it is implemented as per the legislation, the UK would need to be disconnected from the global internet, and most activity economic or otherwise would cease overnight. I should really retract my original position, things in the UK would be very different. Honestly, it kind of needs to happen properly, otherwise people will never learn. Allowing these half baked pieces of legislation to pass and then not implementing them except for some edge case allows the idiots who write it and promote it to claim they were right all along.
    - mnw21cam 3y ago
      There's a general "bad" when law are enacted and then not enforced, especially if it's a law that most people would naturally break because it's a silly law. It allows the authorities to persecute chosen individuals while not actually achieving anything that the law as written looks like it should be trying to achieve. And this is a silly law. Everyone will break it, every time they use an encrypted communication, which is pretty-much every single thing one does on the internet these days. It's a perfect recipe for the authorities to let everyone carry on as normal, then when they want to crush someone they're certain to find some law that they have broken like this one. We should be throwing out such laws.

zorrolovsky 3y ago

Defeatism adds to the problem and it doesn't bring solutions. If we're already accepting that idiotic laws will pass, obviously they will. Let's call this what it is: a myopic and totalitarian law created by misinformed and clueless politicians. Let's fight it tooth and nail until we bury it.

tenpies 3y ago

My hope is that some comparatively insignificant Western country passes it first, makes international news when it cripples its own technological capacity and infrastructure, and then that becomes the cautionary tale. My money is on Canada. The Trudeau Liberals passed their first of three internet control and censorship bills, C-18, and it has already backfired stupendously. It's quite similiar to Australia's similiar bill to force some companies to pay for linking to news content, but the Liberals saw that and thought "we should try it too!". Same result, Google basically said "no problem, we won't link to news in Canada". However, unlike Australia, the Canadian Liberals are doubling down. New tax payer-funded subsidies for Canadian news are already being discussed to make up for the lost revenue the legislation caused. The Liberal-funded media is also trying to paint this as evil greedy foreign capitalist technology companies refusing to pay their fair share for exploiting Canadian news companies. But that's why my money is on Canada. It has the perfect blend of incompetent leadership, empowered by another party that helps them pass any legislation no matter what, and constituents that are largely apathetic to anything that happens.

rainonmoon 3y ago
Don't worry, Australia is doubling down too. Our entire legislative board around tech and the internet at the moment is chock full of draconian shit like this.
BLKNSLVR 3y ago
Australia is half-fucked already, and will be completely fucked when the current opposition get back into Government (they're the ones who initiated the half-fucked status when they were in government, unfortunately with no resistance from the opposition at the time). Raid warrants are already being signed off based on the tiny window into an IP address' life provided by legislated metadata retention. And no further actual police work is done on backgrounding the persons or households involved before choosing to suspend their rights.

pieter_mj 3y ago

It will pass now. It's a concerted effort as the same laws are passing in the EU as well.