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>Let me choose my own apps rather than trying to be a kitchen sink with its own default apps: >Windows lets me disable optional components, why not GNOME? Beca

>Let me choose my own apps rather than trying to be a kitchen sink with its own default apps: >Windows lets me disable optional components, why not GNOME? Because that isn't in-line with the Gnome devs' vision, or how they want you to use Gnome. If you don't agree with their vision, then why are you using their software? If you want a desktop environment that lets you configure it the way you want and disable things you don't want, Gnome simply isn't the DE for you. I really don't understand why this is so difficult a concept for so many Linux users. It's been like this for well over 10 years now (Gnome3 was released in 2011), it's not something new. The Gnome devs have infamously been hostile to users who want to do things differently from their vision.

idle_zealot 3y ago
I'd wager that a large portion of desktop Linux users choose Linux because they want configurability and to fiddle with their system to tune it to their preferences. Encountering such an opinionated software suite on the platform is a culture shock for those people.
- thesuperbigfrog 3y ago
  >> Encountering such an opinionated software suite on the platform is a culture shock for those people. Exactly. It is worse when such opinionated software is the only available corporate default that cannot be changed.
- coffeeling 3y ago
  It's not even it being opinionated, it's being _so hideously_ opinionated. Windows is a pretty good spot, IME - KDE is a little much, macOS maybe a smidge too little, but GNOME just feels like a straitjacket.
thesuperbigfrog 3y ago
>> Because that isn't in-line with the Gnome devs' vision, or how they want you to use Gnome. If you don't agree with their vision, then why are you using their software? Sometimes you don't get to choose. If GNOME is the only desktop environment on your employer's enterprise Linux distro and you do not have root or other window manager choices due to corporate security policies then the GNOME devs' vision is what you get. GNOME 2 was fine. It was customizable and did not shove opinions down your throat. GNOME 3 and 4 have gone the way of MacOS and Windows 11, but worse because there are fewer customizations and bizarre defaults.
- midoridensha 3y ago
  >If GNOME is the only desktop environment on your employer's enterprise Linux distro and you do not have root or other window manager choices due to corporate security policies then the GNOME devs' vision is what you get. That's part of the job. If you don't like it, too bad. I've had to use Windows at many jobs, and that sure as hell wasn't configurable the way I wanted, but it was part of the job. Part of considering a job offer is what the work environment is like, and another part of work is usually putting up with stuff you don't like. It sucks, but nothing's perfect. Personally, I've been using Linux at work for ages and have never been forced to use Gnome; I've always been able to switch to something else, though it's not so well supported. >GNOME 2 was fine. It was customizable and did not shove opinions down your throat. Gnome2 was run by a totally different group of people. This is like comparing Twitter 10 years ago to Twitter today. Unfortunately, this kind of thing can happen with any organization over time. >GNOME 3 and 4 have gone the way of MacOS and Windows 11, but worse because there are fewer customizations and bizarre defaults. Yep, exactly.
  - thesuperbigfrog 3y ago
    >> That's part of the job. If you don't like it, too bad. Agreed, being forced to use what frustrates you sucks. I currently use xfce at home since its behavior and defaults more closely align with GNOME 2, Windows {XP, 7, 10}, fluxbox, blackbox, openbox, and GNUStep. All of those desktops / window managers provide enough customization and flexibility so I can setup things how I want them to work fast and be comfortable. >> Personally, I've been using Linux at work for ages and have never been forced to use Gnome; I've always been able to switch to something else, though it's not so well supported. The previous version of the enterprise Linux distro had more desktop environment choices. In the new version, they threw out everything but GNOME leading to the current frustration.
pengaru 3y ago
There's been a serious entitlement problem among foss users for as long as I can remember. I suspect a major part of it is just the demographic/age... "gamers" are similarly entitled, with more toxicity thrown in.
- DaSHacka 3y ago
  I think requesting the maintainers not be actively hostile towards users isn't users being entitled as much as being frustrated.
- thesuperbigfrog 3y ago
  FOSS users are accustomed to having choices. How many Linux distros can you try out? How many different desktop environments / window managers can you choose from? Which text editor do you want to use? How customizable is your text editor? Which command line shell do you want to use? How customizable is it? If you are accustomed to having choices, but then you suddenly do not, is that entitlement?
  - pengaru 3y ago
    And yet with all those options at their disposal, many of these people feel entitled to the one they picked never changing, depriving the developers of their freedom to choose - and they're the ones doing all the work! Sometimes to the degree of directing hostility and abuse at the developers, rather than just picking another option or leveling up with a fork. With all those choices given to them, these people are so utterly selfish and lacking in common decency, they can't see how appropriate and important it is that those developing the software also have the freedom to choose what direction they take the fruits of their labor. But I think these are just hallmarks of plain immaturity. It reminds me of children having tantrums when mom doesn't cook the free meal they want, instead cooking what mom and dad like. That's what entitled foss users resemble, and I'm pretty sure a lot of them actually are children so what should we expect.
    - thesuperbigfrog 3y ago
      >> With all those choices given to them, these people are so utterly selfish and lacking in common decency, they can't see how appropriate and important it is that those developing the software also have the freedom to choose what direction they take the fruits of their labor. As I stated elsewhere in this thread: Sometimes you don't get to choose. If GNOME is the only desktop environment on your employer's enterprise Linux distro and you do not have root or other window manager choices due to corporate security policies then the GNOME devs' vision is what you get. Yes, it sucks to not have more options, but it is what it is. >> It reminds me of children having tantrums when mom doesn't cook the free meal they want, instead cooking what mom and dad like. That's what entitled foss users resemble, and I'm pretty sure a lot of them actually are children so what should we expect. Unsurprisingly, people do not like to be force-fed food they do not like: https://www.zdnet.com/article/linus-torvalds-finds-gnome-3-4-to-be-a-total-user-experience-design-failure/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/linus-torvalds-finds-gnome-3-4... https://medium.com/@fulalas/gnome-42-the-nonsense-continues-7d96c3287f7 https://medium.com/@fulalas/gnome-42-the-nonsense-continues-... https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/wte7tr/gnomes_design_is_antipattern/ https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/wte7tr/gnomes_design... https://linuxreviews.org/GNOME_Developers_have_Made_Their_Moves_against_Themes https://linuxreviews.org/GNOME_Developers_have_Made_Their_Mo... https://www.osnews.com/story/133955/gnome-to-prevent-theming-wider-community-not-happy/ https://www.osnews.com/story/133955/gnome-to-prevent-theming... It's condescending and offensive to treat others as children just because they disagree with a designer's "grand vision". That is the main reason why so many GNOME forks sprang up: MATE: https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=121162 https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=121162 Cinnamon: https://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=1910 https://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=1910 Unity: https://web.archive.org/web/20101129161856/http://www.pcworld.com/article/208708/canonical_ubuntu_splits_from_gnome_over_design_issues.html https://web.archive.org/web/20101129161856/http://www.pcworl... People want tools that can help them get their work done and do not get in the way.

idle_zealot 3y ago

I'd wager that a large portion of desktop Linux users choose Linux because they want configurability and to fiddle with their system to tune it to their preferences. Encountering such an opinionated software suite on the platform is a culture shock for those people.

thesuperbigfrog 3y ago
>> Encountering such an opinionated software suite on the platform is a culture shock for those people. Exactly. It is worse when such opinionated software is the only available corporate default that cannot be changed.
coffeeling 3y ago
It's not even it being opinionated, it's being _so hideously_ opinionated. Windows is a pretty good spot, IME - KDE is a little much, macOS maybe a smidge too little, but GNOME just feels like a straitjacket.

thesuperbigfrog 3y ago

>> Because that isn't in-line with the Gnome devs' vision, or how they want you to use Gnome. If you don't agree with their vision, then why are you using their software? Sometimes you don't get to choose. If GNOME is the only desktop environment on your employer's enterprise Linux distro and you do not have root or other window manager choices due to corporate security policies then the GNOME devs' vision is what you get. GNOME 2 was fine. It was customizable and did not shove opinions down your throat. GNOME 3 and 4 have gone the way of MacOS and Windows 11, but worse because there are fewer customizations and bizarre defaults.

midoridensha 3y ago
>If GNOME is the only desktop environment on your employer's enterprise Linux distro and you do not have root or other window manager choices due to corporate security policies then the GNOME devs' vision is what you get. That's part of the job. If you don't like it, too bad. I've had to use Windows at many jobs, and that sure as hell wasn't configurable the way I wanted, but it was part of the job. Part of considering a job offer is what the work environment is like, and another part of work is usually putting up with stuff you don't like. It sucks, but nothing's perfect. Personally, I've been using Linux at work for ages and have never been forced to use Gnome; I've always been able to switch to something else, though it's not so well supported. >GNOME 2 was fine. It was customizable and did not shove opinions down your throat. Gnome2 was run by a totally different group of people. This is like comparing Twitter 10 years ago to Twitter today. Unfortunately, this kind of thing can happen with any organization over time. >GNOME 3 and 4 have gone the way of MacOS and Windows 11, but worse because there are fewer customizations and bizarre defaults. Yep, exactly.
- thesuperbigfrog 3y ago
  >> That's part of the job. If you don't like it, too bad. Agreed, being forced to use what frustrates you sucks. I currently use xfce at home since its behavior and defaults more closely align with GNOME 2, Windows {XP, 7, 10}, fluxbox, blackbox, openbox, and GNUStep. All of those desktops / window managers provide enough customization and flexibility so I can setup things how I want them to work fast and be comfortable. >> Personally, I've been using Linux at work for ages and have never been forced to use Gnome; I've always been able to switch to something else, though it's not so well supported. The previous version of the enterprise Linux distro had more desktop environment choices. In the new version, they threw out everything but GNOME leading to the current frustration.

pengaru 3y ago

There's been a serious entitlement problem among foss users for as long as I can remember. I suspect a major part of it is just the demographic/age... "gamers" are similarly entitled, with more toxicity thrown in.

DaSHacka 3y ago
I think requesting the maintainers not be actively hostile towards users isn't users being entitled as much as being frustrated.
thesuperbigfrog 3y ago
FOSS users are accustomed to having choices. How many Linux distros can you try out? How many different desktop environments / window managers can you choose from? Which text editor do you want to use? How customizable is your text editor? Which command line shell do you want to use? How customizable is it? If you are accustomed to having choices, but then you suddenly do not, is that entitlement?
- pengaru 3y ago
  And yet with all those options at their disposal, many of these people feel entitled to the one they picked never changing, depriving the developers of their freedom to choose - and they're the ones doing all the work! Sometimes to the degree of directing hostility and abuse at the developers, rather than just picking another option or leveling up with a fork. With all those choices given to them, these people are so utterly selfish and lacking in common decency, they can't see how appropriate and important it is that those developing the software also have the freedom to choose what direction they take the fruits of their labor. But I think these are just hallmarks of plain immaturity. It reminds me of children having tantrums when mom doesn't cook the free meal they want, instead cooking what mom and dad like. That's what entitled foss users resemble, and I'm pretty sure a lot of them actually are children so what should we expect.
  - thesuperbigfrog 3y ago
    >> With all those choices given to them, these people are so utterly selfish and lacking in common decency, they can't see how appropriate and important it is that those developing the software also have the freedom to choose what direction they take the fruits of their labor. As I stated elsewhere in this thread: Sometimes you don't get to choose. If GNOME is the only desktop environment on your employer's enterprise Linux distro and you do not have root or other window manager choices due to corporate security policies then the GNOME devs' vision is what you get. Yes, it sucks to not have more options, but it is what it is. >> It reminds me of children having tantrums when mom doesn't cook the free meal they want, instead cooking what mom and dad like. That's what entitled foss users resemble, and I'm pretty sure a lot of them actually are children so what should we expect. Unsurprisingly, people do not like to be force-fed food they do not like: https://www.zdnet.com/article/linus-torvalds-finds-gnome-3-4-to-be-a-total-user-experience-design-failure/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/linus-torvalds-finds-gnome-3-4... https://medium.com/@fulalas/gnome-42-the-nonsense-continues-7d96c3287f7 https://medium.com/@fulalas/gnome-42-the-nonsense-continues-... https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/wte7tr/gnomes_design_is_antipattern/ https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/wte7tr/gnomes_design... https://linuxreviews.org/GNOME_Developers_have_Made_Their_Moves_against_Themes https://linuxreviews.org/GNOME_Developers_have_Made_Their_Mo... https://www.osnews.com/story/133955/gnome-to-prevent-theming-wider-community-not-happy/ https://www.osnews.com/story/133955/gnome-to-prevent-theming... It's condescending and offensive to treat others as children just because they disagree with a designer's "grand vision". That is the main reason why so many GNOME forks sprang up: MATE: https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=121162 https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=121162 Cinnamon: https://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=1910 https://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=1910 Unity: https://web.archive.org/web/20101129161856/http://www.pcworld.com/article/208708/canonical_ubuntu_splits_from_gnome_over_design_issues.html https://web.archive.org/web/20101129161856/http://www.pcworl... People want tools that can help them get their work done and do not get in the way.