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The court agrees that the HEROES Act does not authorize debt forgiveness

WheelsAtLarge 3y ago
Biden was going for a Hail Mary on this one. I suspect that even he thought it was a big-if. I'm sure there were a truckload of attorneys telling him why his executive order was overreaching. But the problem remains, what do you do about a problem that is stifling a whole generation? It's leading many to postpone buying a home and even starting a family. I suspect it's affecting the size of the next generation too. They never should have gotten into so much debt. But they did. Now what?
- flangola7 3y ago
  Biden should just go ahead and wipe the debt. It's an exclusively executive branch power, the judicial branch can't interfere.
  - midoridensha 3y ago
    This is actually true. What's the SCOTUS going to do? Start a coup? This has happened before: the SCOTUS ruled that the Indian Removal Act was illegal and struck it down. Andrew Jackson did it anyway, yielding the Trail of Tears. SCOTUS is powerless to enforce its rulings on the executive branch; only Congress can actually act against the President.
    - massysett 3y ago
      By that logic, Congress is powerless against the President as well, as the President has the guns. This whole thing works due to the consent and demand of the people and the people they ultimately put in the government.
      - krapp 3y ago
        >This whole thing works due to the consent and demand of the people and the people they ultimately put in the government. The people by and large supported debt forgiveness. The people by and large want health care and labor reform. The people by and large supported Roe V. Wade. The Federalist Society controls SCOTUS and the will of the people no longer matters.
        midoridensha 3y ago
        The people voted for Trump who installed 3 conservative justices, and they vote for many GOP Congresspeople giving the GOP control of ~1/2 of Congress. Either the people are doing a horrible job of voting according to their interests, or there isn't as large a majority supporting those issues as you think.
        krapp 3y ago
        Not to beat a dead horse but the majority of people didn't vote for Trump. A rural minority of white conservative Christians are doing a good job of voting according to their interests in a system biased in their favor. But they're still a demographic and cultural minority overall.
        midoridensha 3y ago
        There was less than 2% difference in the popular vote results. It wasn't some small minority that elected Trump, it was almost half. It's really strange how Democrat voters constantly, after all these years, try to downplay just how much of the nation supported and elected Trump; it's like they believe that by making people (and themselves) believe that it was some tiny minority, that almost half the American people actually like that con artist and support the awful things he and his party stood for.
        midoridensha 3y ago
        Edit: ... it's like they believe that by making people (and themselves) believe that it was some tiny minority, rather than the fact that almost half the American people actually like that con artist and support the awful things he and his party stood for.
- mindslight 3y ago
  Make student loan debt dischargeable through bankruptcy, like every other type of debt. This was the original corruption that's responsible for most of the horrible dynamic - the all too common pattern of congress trying to have its cake and eat it too. Practically, this shouldn't make those who already paid off student loan debt regret having done so, as going through bankruptcy instead would have given them a much different life path. But it would give a way out to those hopelessly underwater.
  - johng 3y ago
    If I take a loan on a house, or a car, or some other tangible good it can be taken back. I can't take back the education you never paid for. The government should have never gotten into backing college loans, house mortgages or any of those things. The free market should do it, it should be competitive and there are simply some people that don't deserve to go to college on someone else's dime...
    - mindslight 3y ago
      Many debts are collateralized, and many are not. Pointing at some common collateralized debts doesn't really have bearing on the argument. I agree that the government shouldn't be loaning money for college, but I also don't think the government should be loaning money for housing, nor loaning money to banks at ridiculously low rates to bid up the everything bubble - listed in increasing order of importance. But OP asked what we can concretely do right now, to address the problem that has already been created. Stopping student loans cold turkey isn't going to make colleges magically downsize their bloated layers of administrators and lower their tuition - it's just raging at what has already occurred. Just like how raising interest rates a little bit didn't unroll the screwed up housing market, but rather just caused it to lock up and remain in the inflated state. So the first stab at a practical middle of the road approach is to end the poorly thought out legislative subsidy of non-dischargeability, and start letting the already-created financial situations be resolved through the standard processes. Bonus points if some of the money can be clawed back from the colleges that received it, but the basic dynamic has to be defined before that can happen. From the individual perspective, going through bankruptcy isn't instantaneous and has effects that last a significant amount of time for someone who just graduated from college. Courts do look at things like ability to generate income. The option is only going to be practical for those with little hope of actually benefiting from their degree.
- 111111IIIIIII 3y ago
  > Biden was going for a Hail Mary on this one. Not a chance. Look at the timing. He was going for driving young college educated voters to the polls for the midterms. It worked exactly as planned. Since the Democratic Party has abandoned the working class as a whole, they rely on mobilizing the college-educated minority, which is loyal in spirit but unreliable when it comes to actually placing votes. Until something changes, the Democratic Party will drum up a new cause every 2 years (based on their available resources at the time) targeted at this demographic, and it won't always work, but it did this time.
  - mitchdoogle 3y ago
    I think the major issue for the midterms was actually abortion. I think the student debt issue fired up as many detractors as it did proponents
    - 111111IIIIIII 3y ago
      I disagree, but most importantly you're confusing the difference between exciting people who already vote vs. mobilizing non-voters. The Democratic Party is a tad more sophisticated than that.
- jjeaff 3y ago
  The only reason this would be a hail Mary would be if you have a cynical (and correct) view of the conservative majority of the supreme court that they are willing to completely debase themselves and the law in order to get a desired outcome. The law clearly states that the president can "waive or modify" any provision of the federal student loan program. Justice Roberts argues that forgiving some student loans is not waiving or modifying provisions, it is rewriting it from the ground up. Which I don't think any honest assessor would agree with. You could literally add one line to the existing provisions to accomplish the loan forgiveness. But more importantly, you must have standing to bring a lawsuit and this was one of the weakest cases the court has ever approved for standing (possibly with the exception of the 303 creative case) because there was zero evidence of harm to the plaintiff.
- rdtsc 3y ago
  > Biden was going for a Hail Mary on this one. I suspect that even he thought it was a big-if. I'm sure there were a truckload of attorneys telling him why his executive order was overreaching. It’s a political stunt. It’s not like he is someone who just got into politics and just wasn’t aware how the system works. This kind of grandstanding happens all the time. Representatives propose radical bills knowing full well they would never pass. But they can then turn around and say “Oh no, I was going to do all these nice things for you, but $otherside got in my way. Thanks for believing me and voting for me, though”
- pauldenton 3y ago
  It's not stifling those in the generation who never went to college and have no student debt
  - tills13 3y ago
    limited prospects are stifling those. Higher-ed should be free to those that want it -- it lifts society as a whole.
ThinkBeat 3y ago
First free access to higher education should be a cornerstone of a democracy as it is in many countries. (Private institution can still exist and be popular but a -decent- public option should be available). This whole issue deft political stunt by Biden. I believe Biden and his advisers knew there was little chance to no chance of it being implemented. Thus, they did not have to worry about the real-life consequences. The republicans and/or the supreme court would knock it down. Then the Biden administration can then make a big issue out of how the evil opponents stopped the handouts. If it wasn't for SCOTUS and congress/senate, you would all have less student debt. Vote for me and I will do my best to have it passed.
- NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
  > First free access to higher education should be a cornerstone of a democracy as it is in many countries. I can somewhat agree with this in principle, but unfortunately, the way it's worked so far in these USA is that the federal government jacks up their assistance in terms of grants and loans, and then all the colleges and universities jack up their tuition to be commensurate for everything the government just put in their pockets. So it's a zero-sum game and it's an ouroborous where the populace keeps voting free stuff for ourselves, and the cost of "free" just gets higher, and higher, and higher. The same thing happens for medical costs (even after the "Affordable" Care Act), so surely some sort of price controls could prevent these folks from bleeding Uncle Sam completely dry.
  - Nasrudith 3y ago
    For colleges I personally favor an all or nothing fixed tuition policy for student aid. Either they accept the amount given as payment in full, with no tuition raises or sneaky fees xor they take a hike and go full private. That would prevent double dipping and have a fairly graceful failure mode. If the ammount offered is actually too low you would expect to see growth in rejection of federal tuition and more private market as a share. I am by no means an expert admittedly.
- arp242 3y ago
  Normally I'm not too cynical about politics (or most things), but in this case the policy was so obviously spectacularly bad that I find it hard to disagree. And to be very clear: an extremely expensive short-term half-arsed fix that doesn't do a single thing to fix any systemic issues (and, in fact, will likely make them worse) is profoundly bad policy, no matter what you think about education policy in general. I was very disappointed at all people in favour of this, as it's just so obviously the wrong approach to fix anything as we'll be in the same (or worse) situation in 10 to 15 years. Fix college tuition fees first. Then you can start doing something about the existing debt if you want.

Biden was going for a Hail Mary on this one. I suspect that even he thought it was a big-if. I'm sure there were a truckload of attorneys telling him why his executive order was overreaching. But the problem remains, what do you do about a problem that is stifling a whole generation? It's leading many to postpone buying a home and even starting a family. I suspect it's affecting the size of the next generation too. They never should have gotten into so much debt. But they did. Now what?

flangola7 3y ago
Biden should just go ahead and wipe the debt. It's an exclusively executive branch power, the judicial branch can't interfere.
- midoridensha 3y ago
  This is actually true. What's the SCOTUS going to do? Start a coup? This has happened before: the SCOTUS ruled that the Indian Removal Act was illegal and struck it down. Andrew Jackson did it anyway, yielding the Trail of Tears. SCOTUS is powerless to enforce its rulings on the executive branch; only Congress can actually act against the President.
  - massysett 3y ago
    By that logic, Congress is powerless against the President as well, as the President has the guns. This whole thing works due to the consent and demand of the people and the people they ultimately put in the government.
    - krapp 3y ago
      >This whole thing works due to the consent and demand of the people and the people they ultimately put in the government. The people by and large supported debt forgiveness. The people by and large want health care and labor reform. The people by and large supported Roe V. Wade. The Federalist Society controls SCOTUS and the will of the people no longer matters.
      - midoridensha 3y ago
        The people voted for Trump who installed 3 conservative justices, and they vote for many GOP Congresspeople giving the GOP control of ~1/2 of Congress. Either the people are doing a horrible job of voting according to their interests, or there isn't as large a majority supporting those issues as you think.
        krapp 3y ago
        Not to beat a dead horse but the majority of people didn't vote for Trump. A rural minority of white conservative Christians are doing a good job of voting according to their interests in a system biased in their favor. But they're still a demographic and cultural minority overall.
        midoridensha 3y ago
        There was less than 2% difference in the popular vote results. It wasn't some small minority that elected Trump, it was almost half. It's really strange how Democrat voters constantly, after all these years, try to downplay just how much of the nation supported and elected Trump; it's like they believe that by making people (and themselves) believe that it was some tiny minority, that almost half the American people actually like that con artist and support the awful things he and his party stood for.
        midoridensha 3y ago
        Edit: ... it's like they believe that by making people (and themselves) believe that it was some tiny minority, rather than the fact that almost half the American people actually like that con artist and support the awful things he and his party stood for.
mindslight 3y ago
Make student loan debt dischargeable through bankruptcy, like every other type of debt. This was the original corruption that's responsible for most of the horrible dynamic - the all too common pattern of congress trying to have its cake and eat it too. Practically, this shouldn't make those who already paid off student loan debt regret having done so, as going through bankruptcy instead would have given them a much different life path. But it would give a way out to those hopelessly underwater.
- johng 3y ago
  If I take a loan on a house, or a car, or some other tangible good it can be taken back. I can't take back the education you never paid for. The government should have never gotten into backing college loans, house mortgages or any of those things. The free market should do it, it should be competitive and there are simply some people that don't deserve to go to college on someone else's dime...
  - mindslight 3y ago
    Many debts are collateralized, and many are not. Pointing at some common collateralized debts doesn't really have bearing on the argument. I agree that the government shouldn't be loaning money for college, but I also don't think the government should be loaning money for housing, nor loaning money to banks at ridiculously low rates to bid up the everything bubble - listed in increasing order of importance. But OP asked what we can concretely do right now, to address the problem that has already been created. Stopping student loans cold turkey isn't going to make colleges magically downsize their bloated layers of administrators and lower their tuition - it's just raging at what has already occurred. Just like how raising interest rates a little bit didn't unroll the screwed up housing market, but rather just caused it to lock up and remain in the inflated state. So the first stab at a practical middle of the road approach is to end the poorly thought out legislative subsidy of non-dischargeability, and start letting the already-created financial situations be resolved through the standard processes. Bonus points if some of the money can be clawed back from the colleges that received it, but the basic dynamic has to be defined before that can happen. From the individual perspective, going through bankruptcy isn't instantaneous and has effects that last a significant amount of time for someone who just graduated from college. Courts do look at things like ability to generate income. The option is only going to be practical for those with little hope of actually benefiting from their degree.
111111IIIIIII 3y ago
> Biden was going for a Hail Mary on this one. Not a chance. Look at the timing. He was going for driving young college educated voters to the polls for the midterms. It worked exactly as planned. Since the Democratic Party has abandoned the working class as a whole, they rely on mobilizing the college-educated minority, which is loyal in spirit but unreliable when it comes to actually placing votes. Until something changes, the Democratic Party will drum up a new cause every 2 years (based on their available resources at the time) targeted at this demographic, and it won't always work, but it did this time.
- mitchdoogle 3y ago
  I think the major issue for the midterms was actually abortion. I think the student debt issue fired up as many detractors as it did proponents
  - 111111IIIIIII 3y ago
    I disagree, but most importantly you're confusing the difference between exciting people who already vote vs. mobilizing non-voters. The Democratic Party is a tad more sophisticated than that.
jjeaff 3y ago
The only reason this would be a hail Mary would be if you have a cynical (and correct) view of the conservative majority of the supreme court that they are willing to completely debase themselves and the law in order to get a desired outcome. The law clearly states that the president can "waive or modify" any provision of the federal student loan program. Justice Roberts argues that forgiving some student loans is not waiving or modifying provisions, it is rewriting it from the ground up. Which I don't think any honest assessor would agree with. You could literally add one line to the existing provisions to accomplish the loan forgiveness. But more importantly, you must have standing to bring a lawsuit and this was one of the weakest cases the court has ever approved for standing (possibly with the exception of the 303 creative case) because there was zero evidence of harm to the plaintiff.
rdtsc 3y ago
> Biden was going for a Hail Mary on this one. I suspect that even he thought it was a big-if. I'm sure there were a truckload of attorneys telling him why his executive order was overreaching. It’s a political stunt. It’s not like he is someone who just got into politics and just wasn’t aware how the system works. This kind of grandstanding happens all the time. Representatives propose radical bills knowing full well they would never pass. But they can then turn around and say “Oh no, I was going to do all these nice things for you, but $otherside got in my way. Thanks for believing me and voting for me, though”
pauldenton 3y ago
It's not stifling those in the generation who never went to college and have no student debt
- tills13 3y ago
  limited prospects are stifling those. Higher-ed should be free to those that want it -- it lifts society as a whole.

ThinkBeat 3y ago

First free access to higher education should be a cornerstone of a democracy as it is in many countries. (Private institution can still exist and be popular but a -decent- public option should be available). This whole issue deft political stunt by Biden. I believe Biden and his advisers knew there was little chance to no chance of it being implemented. Thus, they did not have to worry about the real-life consequences. The republicans and/or the supreme court would knock it down. Then the Biden administration can then make a big issue out of how the evil opponents stopped the handouts. If it wasn't for SCOTUS and congress/senate, you would all have less student debt. Vote for me and I will do my best to have it passed.

NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
> First free access to higher education should be a cornerstone of a democracy as it is in many countries. I can somewhat agree with this in principle, but unfortunately, the way it's worked so far in these USA is that the federal government jacks up their assistance in terms of grants and loans, and then all the colleges and universities jack up their tuition to be commensurate for everything the government just put in their pockets. So it's a zero-sum game and it's an ouroborous where the populace keeps voting free stuff for ourselves, and the cost of "free" just gets higher, and higher, and higher. The same thing happens for medical costs (even after the "Affordable" Care Act), so surely some sort of price controls could prevent these folks from bleeding Uncle Sam completely dry.
- Nasrudith 3y ago
  For colleges I personally favor an all or nothing fixed tuition policy for student aid. Either they accept the amount given as payment in full, with no tuition raises or sneaky fees xor they take a hike and go full private. That would prevent double dipping and have a fairly graceful failure mode. If the ammount offered is actually too low you would expect to see growth in rejection of federal tuition and more private market as a share. I am by no means an expert admittedly.
arp242 3y ago
Normally I'm not too cynical about politics (or most things), but in this case the policy was so obviously spectacularly bad that I find it hard to disagree. And to be very clear: an extremely expensive short-term half-arsed fix that doesn't do a single thing to fix any systemic issues (and, in fact, will likely make them worse) is profoundly bad policy, no matter what you think about education policy in general. I was very disappointed at all people in favour of this, as it's just so obviously the wrong approach to fix anything as we'll be in the same (or worse) situation in 10 to 15 years. Fix college tuition fees first. Then you can start doing something about the existing debt if you want.