5 ms·

Life after detonation (2012)

88 points by areoform 3y ago

stevespang 3y ago
Erythritol tetranitrate (ETN) - - cousin of PETN, for which the detonation velocity of ETN is just above 8,000 meters per second - - while PETN det vel is about 8,300 meters per second plus, which is in the top 90% of highest velocity detonation velocities available from high explosives. ETN is about 3 times more sensitive than PETN and is more sensitive to friction than the former mentioned compound. The decomposition of ETN is oxygen positive: C4H6N4O12 → 4 CO2 + 3 H2O + N2 + 3/2 O. Why would any professional mess around with something that is 3x more sensitive than PETN ? Easier synthesis perhaps, but life changing or ending, if it detonates accidentally PETN is the preferred explosive in the widely used "det cord", likely for a good reason, at 3x less sensitive.
- K0balt 3y ago
  You still need an initiator to set off PETN. He was making a primary explosive, which is needed to make an initiator or blasting cap. Primary explosives are, as a rule, (and to perform their function) easy to set off, typically with heat or minor impact alone. PETN just burns if you set it on fire. ETN detonates, which is what you want when you are building an electric initiator. Making primary explosives is always sketchy business, since a spark or minor impact is often enough to set them off.
  - sidewndr46 3y ago
    from what I understand this is the mystery of the Alfred P Murrah building bombing. There was never any conclusion as to how the torpex acting as the primary explosive was obtained.
    - Arrath 3y ago
      I seem to recall reading that McVeigh broke into the storage magazine(s) at some local rock quarry and stole dynamite and blasting caps, which would be plenty to set off his home made ANFO (actually ANNM IIRC, but I digress). Guess I'll have to do some research to confirm my memories.
    - jdougan 3y ago
      According to WikipediA, it was Torvex not Torpex.
- moralestapia 3y ago
  I would actually expect professionals to come close to these kind of things more regularly. Seems like he left his guard down a little bit after working for years on these things.
  - twelve40 3y ago
    and here we are complaining about bringing down production...
adhesive_wombat 3y ago
> Instead of being made with Pyrex borosilicate glass, it was cheap soda-lime glass that couldn't stand up to heating. I never noticed the difference. American-made[1] "genuine" Pyrex is now also soda-lime, so just the name isn't proof enough any more, at least for cookware rather than labware. [1]: and I think some stuff found in the UK, as I have a Pyrex-brand jugs and dishes that have got a distinct blue hue when seen edge-on.
- aidfobnaiosrnio 3y ago
  Remember, kids, the purpose of trademarks is to prevent consumer confusion! When a person buys PYREX®, they know it's a name they can trust.
  - Terr_ 3y ago
    Yeah: Kinda makes you wish there was a good system for customers to sue a company into dropping a trademark that's being used to mislead.
  - sigzero 3y ago
    Yup! PYREX = good and Pyrex = sub-par.
    - chris_wot 3y ago
      Trademark dilution can have deadly consequences!
- fmajid 3y ago
  No, the lab-grade stuff is still borosilicate, only the consumer products were gimped.
  - Arn_Thor 3y ago
    The fella did say he bought it from a kitchen store though..
- deleted 3y ago
twelve40 3y ago
offtopic, but I love such old-school niche forums, there used to be so many diverse communities out there... Probably mostly wiped out by one and only Reddit by now : (
- chinchilla2020 3y ago
  We won't see posts like this ever again on the internet. The time for serious forum discourse is over.
- jujube3 3y ago
  There are plenty of forums that aren't Reddit. You're on one now.
kazinator 3y ago
> the cause of the accident turned out to be the Chinese knockoff beaker That's my takeaway here.
- twelve40 3y ago
  by following the 5 whys analysis technique, it appears that the actual root cause of this accident is "trying stupid shit at home"... (maybe just buy some firecrackers for the reenactment next time? no pressing need to cook them at home Breaking Bad style...)
  - tom_ 3y ago
    I did wonder whether his point was that he'd followed all the precepts of his training to the letter, and the dodgy beaker was the unsuspected weak foundation. But then, later in the thread... > I did a lot of small things wrong, including working at 4am while I was dead tired. Hmm. Well. Maybe not then? (As a betting man, I will also bet that this was not the first time that he had done this.)
    - at_a_remove 3y ago
      Yeah, I am going with the general idea that most disasters are really an accumulation of small mistakes, unlikely events, bits overlooked, that just happen to line up, all aided by the normalization of deviance. And it is frightening because each and every one of us is subject to this kind of thing unless we develop an unhealthy-in-all-other-respects obsession with repetitive checking. Familiarity brings contempt for safety procedures.
JohnMakin 3y ago
> What I should have done right then was drop to the floor and cover my ears. I'd give my left nut to be able to time travel back 2 years and do that. Or his left hand, as it were.
- twelve40 3y ago
  seems like a bit more, the left hand+eardrums+right thumb are mentioned... a pretty intense tradeoff :thinking_face:
  - Wojtkie 3y ago
    Yeah, losing your thumb on the only hand you have left is rough. There are prosthetics, but the thumb is extremely important for overall functionality of the hand.
AlbertCory 3y ago
After I just watched the Mythbusters episode where they show some experiments that you can do at home. One of the ones you can't is mixing water with dry ice. They put a rubber "hand" near a soda bottle, which they then fill up and cap tightly in the way you shouldn't do. The damage to the "hand" was really impressive.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
techbro92 3y ago
This was almost me after I lit off 3lbs of thermite. It instantly reacted and the heat blast burned off 5% of my skin. I got very lucky and completely recovered though.
Modified3019 3y ago
Yeah... saw that coming the moment there was any way for the contents of the beaker to directly contact the hot plate (no big ass double water bath), and there wasn't an ice bath present immediately drop the beaker into and get the fuck outta dodge. Explosives are one of those things that provide for endless fascination to many and were a common topic in the earlier days of the internet, thankfully this now ancient post https://archive.is/JX6gl https://archive.is/JX6gl [alt: https://web.archive.org/web/20220117042510/http://www.operatorchan.org/stem/res/2696.html https://web.archive.org/web/20220117042510/http://www.operat...] with it's then highly unusual focus on safety precautions, temperature controls, and emergency measures killed and buried any possibility of me ever becoming curious enough to actually mess with that shit.
- Arainach 3y ago
  >Take a good look at your hands. I want you to admire them for a moment. The dexterity of the fingers, the sensitivity of the tips and the palms. Trace the muscles in each with your other hand, noticing how the ones in your fapping hand seem a little bit bigger and meatier. Think of all the wonderful things you use them for - pulling a trigger, petting a kitty, warming your girlfriend up for sexytimes, pimp-slapping a distinguished urban gentleman, holding your slippery dragon dildo. >Do you want to keep those hands? Then read this section very fucking carefully Parts of this are poetry approaching that of Ignition!: https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/ignition-john-d-clark/1103164169 https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/ignition-john-d-clark/11031...
ChuckMcM 3y ago
That is a really sobering story. At USC the lab guys were very adamant about "pull down the ventilator hood and evacuate" in the event that pretty much any didn't go as planned. People often wonder about annual or bi-annual safety training, it is for exactly for this type of situation, the goal is "don't think, just do what you were trained to do".
refurb 3y ago
If you’re going to DIY explosives it would be smart to educate yourself about the safety precautions that actual explosive labs use. They are publicly available. What a rough lesson to learn.
toss1 3y ago
>>BTW, the cause of the accident turned out to be the Chinese knockoff beaker ... The "Pyrex" logo on another one bought at the same time, on closer inspection, read "Pyrox", with a tiny "made in China" text at the bottom. Instead of being made with Pyrex borosilicate glass, it was cheap soda-lime glass that couldn't stand up to heating. I never noticed the difference. I can tell tales of very expensive prototype drones getting a hard landing due to a cheap Chinese solder joint breaking, people being injured on cheap Chinese carbon fiber bikes, and on and on and on, without going into the home-grown Chinese product scandals that killed children with bad infant formula, etc. Yet, the idea persists that "you can get the same thing cheaper" and from production mills in a country where quality is literally a foreign concept. The longer I live, the more I find that it really is true that "Quality is it's own reason.". Good tools and equipment pay for themselves in durability, usability, safety, efficiency, higher quality output, just plain pleasure to use, and perhaps most importantly, stupid down-time events that never happen. Better to buy second-hand high-quality equipment than new lower-grade junk. And yes, we should be decoupling from China - all engagement does is empower the CCP.
1MachineElf 3y ago
Was this posted because yesterday was the 4th of July - the infamous USA Independence Day holiday where people set off dangerous explosive fireworks? This past July 4th was the first time I ever had a firework malfunction on me. A mortar blew up inside the tube as soon as the fuse burnt out. Typically they launch into the air first, then explode. The tube burst into smoky pieces that flew in every direction over my front yard. Someone could have lost an eye.

88 points by areoform 3y ago

Erythritol tetranitrate (ETN) - - cousin of PETN, for which the detonation velocity of ETN is just above 8,000 meters per second - - while PETN det vel is about 8,300 meters per second plus, which is in the top 90% of highest velocity detonation velocities available from high explosives. ETN is about 3 times more sensitive than PETN and is more sensitive to friction than the former mentioned compound. The decomposition of ETN is oxygen positive: C4H6N4O12 → 4 CO2 + 3 H2O + N2 + 3/2 O. Why would any professional mess around with something that is 3x more sensitive than PETN ? Easier synthesis perhaps, but life changing or ending, if it detonates accidentally PETN is the preferred explosive in the widely used "det cord", likely for a good reason, at 3x less sensitive.

K0balt 3y ago
You still need an initiator to set off PETN. He was making a primary explosive, which is needed to make an initiator or blasting cap. Primary explosives are, as a rule, (and to perform their function) easy to set off, typically with heat or minor impact alone. PETN just burns if you set it on fire. ETN detonates, which is what you want when you are building an electric initiator. Making primary explosives is always sketchy business, since a spark or minor impact is often enough to set them off.
- sidewndr46 3y ago
  from what I understand this is the mystery of the Alfred P Murrah building bombing. There was never any conclusion as to how the torpex acting as the primary explosive was obtained.
  - Arrath 3y ago
    I seem to recall reading that McVeigh broke into the storage magazine(s) at some local rock quarry and stole dynamite and blasting caps, which would be plenty to set off his home made ANFO (actually ANNM IIRC, but I digress). Guess I'll have to do some research to confirm my memories.
  - jdougan 3y ago
    According to WikipediA, it was Torvex not Torpex.
moralestapia 3y ago
I would actually expect professionals to come close to these kind of things more regularly. Seems like he left his guard down a little bit after working for years on these things.
- twelve40 3y ago
  and here we are complaining about bringing down production...

adhesive_wombat 3y ago

> Instead of being made with Pyrex borosilicate glass, it was cheap soda-lime glass that couldn't stand up to heating. I never noticed the difference. American-made[1] "genuine" Pyrex is now also soda-lime, so just the name isn't proof enough any more, at least for cookware rather than labware. [1]: and I think some stuff found in the UK, as I have a Pyrex-brand jugs and dishes that have got a distinct blue hue when seen edge-on.

aidfobnaiosrnio 3y ago
Remember, kids, the purpose of trademarks is to prevent consumer confusion! When a person buys PYREX®, they know it's a name they can trust.
- Terr_ 3y ago
  Yeah: Kinda makes you wish there was a good system for customers to sue a company into dropping a trademark that's being used to mislead.
- sigzero 3y ago
  Yup! PYREX = good and Pyrex = sub-par.
  - chris_wot 3y ago
    Trademark dilution can have deadly consequences!
fmajid 3y ago
No, the lab-grade stuff is still borosilicate, only the consumer products were gimped.
- Arn_Thor 3y ago
  The fella did say he bought it from a kitchen store though..
deleted 3y ago

twelve40 3y ago

offtopic, but I love such old-school niche forums, there used to be so many diverse communities out there... Probably mostly wiped out by one and only Reddit by now : (

chinchilla2020 3y ago
We won't see posts like this ever again on the internet. The time for serious forum discourse is over.
jujube3 3y ago
There are plenty of forums that aren't Reddit. You're on one now.

kazinator 3y ago

> the cause of the accident turned out to be the Chinese knockoff beaker That's my takeaway here.

twelve40 3y ago
by following the 5 whys analysis technique, it appears that the actual root cause of this accident is "trying stupid shit at home"... (maybe just buy some firecrackers for the reenactment next time? no pressing need to cook them at home Breaking Bad style...)
- tom_ 3y ago
  I did wonder whether his point was that he'd followed all the precepts of his training to the letter, and the dodgy beaker was the unsuspected weak foundation. But then, later in the thread... > I did a lot of small things wrong, including working at 4am while I was dead tired. Hmm. Well. Maybe not then? (As a betting man, I will also bet that this was not the first time that he had done this.)
  - at_a_remove 3y ago
    Yeah, I am going with the general idea that most disasters are really an accumulation of small mistakes, unlikely events, bits overlooked, that just happen to line up, all aided by the normalization of deviance. And it is frightening because each and every one of us is subject to this kind of thing unless we develop an unhealthy-in-all-other-respects obsession with repetitive checking. Familiarity brings contempt for safety procedures.

JohnMakin 3y ago

> What I should have done right then was drop to the floor and cover my ears. I'd give my left nut to be able to time travel back 2 years and do that. Or his left hand, as it were.

twelve40 3y ago
seems like a bit more, the left hand+eardrums+right thumb are mentioned... a pretty intense tradeoff :thinking_face:
- Wojtkie 3y ago
  Yeah, losing your thumb on the only hand you have left is rough. There are prosthetics, but the thumb is extremely important for overall functionality of the hand.

AlbertCory 3y ago

After I just watched the Mythbusters episode where they show some experiments that you can do at home. One of the ones you can't is mixing water with dry ice. They put a rubber "hand" near a soda bottle, which they then fill up and cap tightly in the way you shouldn't do. The damage to the "hand" was really impressive.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

techbro92 3y ago

This was almost me after I lit off 3lbs of thermite. It instantly reacted and the heat blast burned off 5% of my skin. I got very lucky and completely recovered though.

Modified3019 3y ago

Yeah... saw that coming the moment there was any way for the contents of the beaker to directly contact the hot plate (no big ass double water bath), and there wasn't an ice bath present immediately drop the beaker into and get the fuck outta dodge. Explosives are one of those things that provide for endless fascination to many and were a common topic in the earlier days of the internet, thankfully this now ancient post https://archive.is/JX6gl https://archive.is/JX6gl [alt: https://web.archive.org/web/20220117042510/http://www.operatorchan.org/stem/res/2696.html https://web.archive.org/web/20220117042510/http://www.operat...] with it's then highly unusual focus on safety precautions, temperature controls, and emergency measures killed and buried any possibility of me ever becoming curious enough to actually mess with that shit.

Arainach 3y ago
>Take a good look at your hands. I want you to admire them for a moment. The dexterity of the fingers, the sensitivity of the tips and the palms. Trace the muscles in each with your other hand, noticing how the ones in your fapping hand seem a little bit bigger and meatier. Think of all the wonderful things you use them for - pulling a trigger, petting a kitty, warming your girlfriend up for sexytimes, pimp-slapping a distinguished urban gentleman, holding your slippery dragon dildo. >Do you want to keep those hands? Then read this section very fucking carefully Parts of this are poetry approaching that of Ignition!: https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/ignition-john-d-clark/1103164169 https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/ignition-john-d-clark/11031...

ChuckMcM 3y ago

That is a really sobering story. At USC the lab guys were very adamant about "pull down the ventilator hood and evacuate" in the event that pretty much any didn't go as planned. People often wonder about annual or bi-annual safety training, it is for exactly for this type of situation, the goal is "don't think, just do what you were trained to do".

refurb 3y ago

If you’re going to DIY explosives it would be smart to educate yourself about the safety precautions that actual explosive labs use. They are publicly available. What a rough lesson to learn.

toss1 3y ago

>>BTW, the cause of the accident turned out to be the Chinese knockoff beaker ... The "Pyrex" logo on another one bought at the same time, on closer inspection, read "Pyrox", with a tiny "made in China" text at the bottom. Instead of being made with Pyrex borosilicate glass, it was cheap soda-lime glass that couldn't stand up to heating. I never noticed the difference. I can tell tales of very expensive prototype drones getting a hard landing due to a cheap Chinese solder joint breaking, people being injured on cheap Chinese carbon fiber bikes, and on and on and on, without going into the home-grown Chinese product scandals that killed children with bad infant formula, etc. Yet, the idea persists that "you can get the same thing cheaper" and from production mills in a country where quality is literally a foreign concept. The longer I live, the more I find that it really is true that "Quality is it's own reason.". Good tools and equipment pay for themselves in durability, usability, safety, efficiency, higher quality output, just plain pleasure to use, and perhaps most importantly, stupid down-time events that never happen. Better to buy second-hand high-quality equipment than new lower-grade junk. And yes, we should be decoupling from China - all engagement does is empower the CCP.

1MachineElf 3y ago

Was this posted because yesterday was the 4th of July - the infamous USA Independence Day holiday where people set off dangerous explosive fireworks? This past July 4th was the first time I ever had a firework malfunction on me. A mortar blew up inside the tube as soon as the fuse burnt out. Typically they launch into the air first, then explode. The tube burst into smoky pieces that flew in every direction over my front yard. Someone could have lost an eye.