3 ms·

The term doesn't belong to the OSI. But the basic tenets of the OSI definition are very important to devs. And source being available but not able to be legally

The term doesn't belong to the OSI. But the basic tenets of the OSI definition are very important to devs. And source being available but not able to be legally reused makes it useless for the vast majority of FOSS projects.

dahart 3y ago
I agree. I’m not arguing against the value or the stature of OSI’s definition at all, I’m only reacting to the demand to never say the words “open source” unless you mean OSI’s definition. The Robustness Principle applies to language; be conservative in what you say, and liberal in what you hear. It’s fine to point out when a license or particular software isn’t OSI-approved open source. It’s fine to ask if people mean OSI when they say “open source” without a qualifier. It’s fine to add a qualifier too.
- mod50ack 3y ago
  There is a difference between strictly following the OSI definition and the general idea of "open source." For instance, while "open source" and "free software" are effectively interchangeable category definitions, there are some minor technical reasons why the FSF definition allows a few licenses the OSI definition doesn't and vice versa. If we were talking about "oh, this is accepted by the FSF as free software, but not by the OSI as open source," then OK, sure. And you could go on with Debian and Fedora approvals and so on. But we're not talking about technicalities here. We're talking about the vey basic idea of what it means to be "open source." I'm not telling anyone that they can't use words however they want. They can. But the way they're using the term "open source" is just fundamentally incompatible with how the vast majority of people in the field use it. So it's at the very least going to cause some confusion to use the term "open source" in the way they are. Besides, I think people have a bigger problem with the licensing change itself than any wordsmithery.
  - dahart 3y ago
    > I’m not telling anyone that they can’t use words however they want. They can. It sounds like we are in full agreement, and you’re with me that @xenago’s demand to not use the phrase might be overstepping a little bit, no? Isn’t this confusion easier to clear up with a single short question than with assumptions or demands? There is a slight problem with claiming using “open source” is confusing to the people who know about OSI. To the lay person who’s not a software developer, “open source” does mean ‘source is visible’, and “free software” does mean ‘software that costs no money’ (and these definitions are included in dictionaries and Wikipedia, next to the OSI and FSF versions). The OSI and FSF definitions are terms of art that these orgs are trying to establish and control, and they deviate from what the literal words alone imply, both in meaning and level of specificity, therefore they will always be confusing to people who are neither developers nor lawyers. Wouldn’t it be better if FSF and OSI relied not on co-opting everyday words, but having phrases that are more obviously terms of art and more obviously attached to the orgs? Even something as simple as “OSI Open Source” or “FSF Free Software” would go a long way. OSI does on it’s site use “OSD - Open Source Definition” quite a bit.
    - type0 3y ago
      > To the layperson who’s not a software developer, “open source” does mean ‘source is visible’, and “free software” does mean ‘software that costs no money’ Source available is the correct term. Laymen who don't know any better often call shareware open source as well; they don't know how the software is made and don't care. That is not a good reason to use incorrect words.
      - pjmlp 3y ago
        At the end of the day, what matters is how it stands in court.
      - dahart 3y ago
        Serious question: what, exactly, is “correct”, and who says? BTW I’ve never heard “source available” used outside of discussions about OSI and FSF.
    - mod50ack 3y ago

dahart 3y ago

I agree. I’m not arguing against the value or the stature of OSI’s definition at all, I’m only reacting to the demand to never say the words “open source” unless you mean OSI’s definition. The Robustness Principle applies to language; be conservative in what you say, and liberal in what you hear. It’s fine to point out when a license or particular software isn’t OSI-approved open source. It’s fine to ask if people mean OSI when they say “open source” without a qualifier. It’s fine to add a qualifier too.

mod50ack 3y ago
There is a difference between strictly following the OSI definition and the general idea of "open source." For instance, while "open source" and "free software" are effectively interchangeable category definitions, there are some minor technical reasons why the FSF definition allows a few licenses the OSI definition doesn't and vice versa. If we were talking about "oh, this is accepted by the FSF as free software, but not by the OSI as open source," then OK, sure. And you could go on with Debian and Fedora approvals and so on. But we're not talking about technicalities here. We're talking about the vey basic idea of what it means to be "open source." I'm not telling anyone that they can't use words however they want. They can. But the way they're using the term "open source" is just fundamentally incompatible with how the vast majority of people in the field use it. So it's at the very least going to cause some confusion to use the term "open source" in the way they are. Besides, I think people have a bigger problem with the licensing change itself than any wordsmithery.
- dahart 3y ago
  > I’m not telling anyone that they can’t use words however they want. They can. It sounds like we are in full agreement, and you’re with me that @xenago’s demand to not use the phrase might be overstepping a little bit, no? Isn’t this confusion easier to clear up with a single short question than with assumptions or demands? There is a slight problem with claiming using “open source” is confusing to the people who know about OSI. To the lay person who’s not a software developer, “open source” does mean ‘source is visible’, and “free software” does mean ‘software that costs no money’ (and these definitions are included in dictionaries and Wikipedia, next to the OSI and FSF versions). The OSI and FSF definitions are terms of art that these orgs are trying to establish and control, and they deviate from what the literal words alone imply, both in meaning and level of specificity, therefore they will always be confusing to people who are neither developers nor lawyers. Wouldn’t it be better if FSF and OSI relied not on co-opting everyday words, but having phrases that are more obviously terms of art and more obviously attached to the orgs? Even something as simple as “OSI Open Source” or “FSF Free Software” would go a long way. OSI does on it’s site use “OSD - Open Source Definition” quite a bit.
  - type0 3y ago
    > To the layperson who’s not a software developer, “open source” does mean ‘source is visible’, and “free software” does mean ‘software that costs no money’ Source available is the correct term. Laymen who don't know any better often call shareware open source as well; they don't know how the software is made and don't care. That is not a good reason to use incorrect words.
    - pjmlp 3y ago
      At the end of the day, what matters is how it stands in court.
    - dahart 3y ago
      Serious question: what, exactly, is “correct”, and who says? BTW I’ve never heard “source available” used outside of discussions about OSI and FSF.
  - mod50ack 3y ago