4 ms·

> "Of course, the reason was because First Officer Ryan had set both thrust levers to idle, and because of the control handover, no one pushed them back up agai

> "Of course, the reason was because First Officer Ryan had set both thrust levers to idle, and because of the control handover, no one pushed them back up again." > "In fact, with both engines at idle, the asymmetric thrust had disappeared, and it was trivial to keep the plane straight and level." > "First Officer Ryan even seemingly forgot that the left engine was at idle power because he put it there himself not even two minutes earlier." And here we have the primary cause of all the confusion. It was not trivial to keep the plane at level, if engines had no power. The "sexism", the "given their earlier conversation, he surely knew where arguing with Okai would get him (which was nowhere)" aren't the cause here.

WesolyKubeczek 3y ago
I’m inclined to cite not so much “sexism” as “32-minute rant”. For all I care, it could be tabs vs spaces, with the same outcome.
- JJMcJ 3y ago
  An atmosphere of confusion and hostility.
- blamazon 3y ago
  > As First Officer Ryan listened, interjecting only occasionally to affirm his captain So, I think the sexism is important to the explanatory narrative because it demonstrates the scale of the power imbalance between the captain and the first officer - the captain sat there and blabbed for 32 minutes including something so objectionable as musing about how if annoying women get murdered, it's their fault. Quoth the article: > “These are the kind of women you don’t wanna get married to,” he said. “You know, some men, they lose their temper and the next thing you know, the wife is dead, you know… they start punching them and kicking them, and they lost their minds, you know… they kill the woman… it’s the woman who can drive you to do crazy stuff, you know?” But the first officer was not empowered to object to that - not empowered to object for sexism and murder, not for tabs vs spaces, not for anything. There was, therefore, possibly nothing the captain could have said in that 32 minutes that the first officer would have objected to.
  - kortilla 3y ago
    Or the first officer just didn’t care. He didn’t call it up in the post interviews as something that he felt uncomfortable about. Sexism is shockingly rampant.
    - eastbound 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - foobarbecue 3y ago
        Dang, that really sucks about your formative experiences. I'm sorry for you and hope you don't have to spend the rest of your life harboring a secret hatred for half of all humans. I'm guessing that at some level you realize women are people and it's not healthy or sensible to despise them as a group, but it's not an opinion you can just "fix". Have you tried counselling for this? And frankly, yeah, it's disqualifying. Having read this comment, I wouldn't consider hiring you for any position or voluntarily working with you at all until I had some assurance that you're able to transcend this issue. (n.b. I'm a straight, cis, white, man)
      - jacquesm 3y ago
        > I personally despise women At some point you have to deal with the fact that your formative years are not an excuse for holding a life-long grudge against such a large group of people. This makes no sense at all.
      - bbor 3y ago
        I’m having trouble parsing your comment. What behavior falls under “men being humans”? Like, “we’re all flawed” or the killing-your-wife idea from the article? Also obviously on board with the other comments explaining that bad childhood experiences are not an excuse to form beliefs you know to be biased and false.
    - cat_plus_plus 3y ago
      You don't think women might trade tirades about men when having off the record conversation with just two of them in the cockpit? People vent, it doesn't mean much by itself. If he had a fight with a male copilot, he may have had a different tirade.
foobarbecue 3y ago
No, sexism didn't cause the accident, but I'm glad the article brought it up. Those comments excusing men who murder their annoying wives were horrifying and frankly I think anyone who says stuff like that in the workplace (in this case, violating sterile cockpit) deserves to be exposed publicly (especially a divorce lawyer). And, it is relevant context, given the kerffufle about whether to follow the checklist and how flustered Okai became.
- TheHappyOddish 3y ago
  > Those comments excusing men who murder their annoying wives were horrifying and frankly I think anyone who says stuff like that in the workplace (in this case, violating sterile cockpit) deserves to be exposed publicly (especially a divorce lawyer). These are obviously horrible things to say, but people "vent" all the time to their friends saying things they don't mean. I've head women who recently got broken up with say all men should die, people say they wish their manager got hit by a bus, etc. "Excusing murder" seems like the worst-faith interpretation here, and anyone who vents their angry thoughts being "publicly exposed" seems like it would do a lot more harm than good.
- kortilla 3y ago
  > And, it is relevant context, given the kerffufle about whether to follow the checklist and how flustered Okai became. No it’s not. The call to not follow the checklist came from the first officer (focusing on flying the plane was higher priority). The captain didn’t challenge him on it because he agreed with the call. There was no “kerffufle” or even disagreement.
  - foobarbecue 3y ago
    I called it a kerfuffle because they started the engine shutdown checklist and then abandoned it after a couple of items, which seems pretty kerfuffly to me. I thought the discussion with Moore was relevant because that argument had been about Okai not doing procedures by the book, and because Okai has been previously reprimanded for failing to follow an engine shutdown checklist.
- 3y ago
lisasays 3y ago
The article clearly identifies stress (and potential power/trust issues between the pilots), not sexism per se as a potential causative factor. As per other comments in this thread, e.g. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36591776 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36591776
PhasmaFelis 3y ago
> The "sexism" Not sure why the scare quotes. What he said was definitely sexist and doesn't need defending; and no one's claimed his sexism was the cause of the accident, so that argument doesn't need refuting either.
ricardobeat 3y ago
The idling was not the cause either - the problem as the report points out is the 1m40s the captain spent trying to talk to the tower, instead of going through the checklist to identify the failed engine. That was before they were set to idle.

WesolyKubeczek 3y ago

I’m inclined to cite not so much “sexism” as “32-minute rant”. For all I care, it could be tabs vs spaces, with the same outcome.

JJMcJ 3y ago
An atmosphere of confusion and hostility.
blamazon 3y ago
> As First Officer Ryan listened, interjecting only occasionally to affirm his captain So, I think the sexism is important to the explanatory narrative because it demonstrates the scale of the power imbalance between the captain and the first officer - the captain sat there and blabbed for 32 minutes including something so objectionable as musing about how if annoying women get murdered, it's their fault. Quoth the article: > “These are the kind of women you don’t wanna get married to,” he said. “You know, some men, they lose their temper and the next thing you know, the wife is dead, you know… they start punching them and kicking them, and they lost their minds, you know… they kill the woman… it’s the woman who can drive you to do crazy stuff, you know?” But the first officer was not empowered to object to that - not empowered to object for sexism and murder, not for tabs vs spaces, not for anything. There was, therefore, possibly nothing the captain could have said in that 32 minutes that the first officer would have objected to.
- kortilla 3y ago
  Or the first officer just didn’t care. He didn’t call it up in the post interviews as something that he felt uncomfortable about. Sexism is shockingly rampant.
  - eastbound 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - foobarbecue 3y ago
      Dang, that really sucks about your formative experiences. I'm sorry for you and hope you don't have to spend the rest of your life harboring a secret hatred for half of all humans. I'm guessing that at some level you realize women are people and it's not healthy or sensible to despise them as a group, but it's not an opinion you can just "fix". Have you tried counselling for this? And frankly, yeah, it's disqualifying. Having read this comment, I wouldn't consider hiring you for any position or voluntarily working with you at all until I had some assurance that you're able to transcend this issue. (n.b. I'm a straight, cis, white, man)
    - jacquesm 3y ago
      > I personally despise women At some point you have to deal with the fact that your formative years are not an excuse for holding a life-long grudge against such a large group of people. This makes no sense at all.
    - bbor 3y ago
      I’m having trouble parsing your comment. What behavior falls under “men being humans”? Like, “we’re all flawed” or the killing-your-wife idea from the article? Also obviously on board with the other comments explaining that bad childhood experiences are not an excuse to form beliefs you know to be biased and false.
  - cat_plus_plus 3y ago
    You don't think women might trade tirades about men when having off the record conversation with just two of them in the cockpit? People vent, it doesn't mean much by itself. If he had a fight with a male copilot, he may have had a different tirade.

foobarbecue 3y ago

No, sexism didn't cause the accident, but I'm glad the article brought it up. Those comments excusing men who murder their annoying wives were horrifying and frankly I think anyone who says stuff like that in the workplace (in this case, violating sterile cockpit) deserves to be exposed publicly (especially a divorce lawyer). And, it is relevant context, given the kerffufle about whether to follow the checklist and how flustered Okai became.

TheHappyOddish 3y ago
> Those comments excusing men who murder their annoying wives were horrifying and frankly I think anyone who says stuff like that in the workplace (in this case, violating sterile cockpit) deserves to be exposed publicly (especially a divorce lawyer). These are obviously horrible things to say, but people "vent" all the time to their friends saying things they don't mean. I've head women who recently got broken up with say all men should die, people say they wish their manager got hit by a bus, etc. "Excusing murder" seems like the worst-faith interpretation here, and anyone who vents their angry thoughts being "publicly exposed" seems like it would do a lot more harm than good.
kortilla 3y ago
> And, it is relevant context, given the kerffufle about whether to follow the checklist and how flustered Okai became. No it’s not. The call to not follow the checklist came from the first officer (focusing on flying the plane was higher priority). The captain didn’t challenge him on it because he agreed with the call. There was no “kerffufle” or even disagreement.
- foobarbecue 3y ago
  I called it a kerfuffle because they started the engine shutdown checklist and then abandoned it after a couple of items, which seems pretty kerfuffly to me. I thought the discussion with Moore was relevant because that argument had been about Okai not doing procedures by the book, and because Okai has been previously reprimanded for failing to follow an engine shutdown checklist.
3y ago

lisasays 3y ago

The article clearly identifies stress (and potential power/trust issues between the pilots), not sexism per se as a potential causative factor. As per other comments in this thread, e.g. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36591776 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36591776

PhasmaFelis 3y ago

> The "sexism" Not sure why the scare quotes. What he said was definitely sexist and doesn't need defending; and no one's claimed his sexism was the cause of the accident, so that argument doesn't need refuting either.

ricardobeat 3y ago

The idling was not the cause either - the problem as the report points out is the 1m40s the captain spent trying to talk to the tower, instead of going through the checklist to identify the failed engine. That was before they were set to idle.