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Exactly this. Hydrogen is like crypto. It has just enough interesting tech to attract (using D&D terminology here) high INT, low WIS people. Hydrogen will prob

Exactly this. Hydrogen is like crypto. It has just enough interesting tech to attract (using D&D terminology here) high INT, low WIS people. Hydrogen will probably never work unless someone comes up with a stable molecule that includes hydrogen, is large enough to not move through solid objects, and still retains enough chemical energy to be useful. Ammonium is one option, but it is highly toxic. Only really practical in cargo ships. Hydrogen also can be useful for inherently expensive things like rockets and jet planes. But never cars. It was never going to compete with electric. EVs have been slandered for so long that people just assumed we would come up with something better. But EVs are great. Driving an ICE car after being in a Tesla feels like playing a first-person shooter over dial-up.

_hypx 3y ago
That's a completely ignorant statement. Hydrogen cars actually exist and work exactly as advertised. There are no fundamental challenges. This reads like one of those anti-BEV posts from a decade ago. In both cases, the author is totally oblivious to the current state of technology. > It was never going to compete with electric. EVs have been slandered for so long that people just assumed we would come up with something better. Hydrogen cars are EVs. This is a deep misunderstanding of the issue.
- alphager 3y ago
  The production and storage of hydrogen is expensive, had the downside of requiring a large tank in the car and is less efficient than just using a battery.
  - _hypx 3y ago
    The cost will drop to nearly zero, just like the rest of renewable energy production. Tanks are cheaper, smaller and lighter than li-ion batteries. Fuel cell cars are also EVs, just like BEVs. The "efficiency problem" is greatly exaggerated.
    - ffhhttt 3y ago
      > The cost will drop to nearly zero, just like the rest of renewable energy production How and why? I could say the same thing about batteries.. I assume hydrogen might be the best option for lorries and other heavy vehicles but what are its advantages for personal cars?
      - _hypx 3y ago
        Batteries will always been heavy and be dependent on large quantities of mined materials. The advantage of hydrogen is that it is made from water. So the raw materials used to make hydrogen will trend towards zero, similar to what happened with wind and solar.
- WirelessGigabit 3y ago
  > Hydrogen cars are EVs. The Toyota Mirai is a hydrogen Fuel Cell car. BMW tried to create a hydrogen ICE: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_Hydrogen_7 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_Hydrogen_7
  - _hypx 3y ago
    I probably should have said "fuel cell cars are EVs." But yes, you can make an ICE powered by hydrogen. It is likely to be a niche product, mainly sports cars and perhaps some diesel engine replacements.
- panick21_ 3y ago
  > Hydrogen cars actually exist and work exactly as advertised. And if by that you mean very badly and very impractically then you are correct. > There are no fundamental challenges. Except, you know building them cheap at volume. Just a small thing. > This reads like one of those anti-BEV posts from a decade ago. Except it also reads like anti-Hydrogen EV post from a decade ago and since then BEV have made utterly insane amount of progress and hydrogen vehicles are still in the utterly sorry and embracing state they were 10 years ago.
staticautomatic 3y ago
I would not underestimate the amount of weight behind the development and commercialization of hydrogen technology. Everyone in the oil and gas industry, including natural gas utilities, has a strong incentive to figure out how to make it work.
- _hypx 3y ago
  Literally everyone has a massive incentive to make green hydrogen work. It is pretty fundamental to industry, manufacturing, agriculture, transportation, etc. There is no path to zero emissions without it. In reality, just a handful of vocal BEV fans oppose this technology on purely personal grounds.
  - panick21_ 3y ago
    > Literally everyone has a massive incentive to make green hydrogen work. There is also the reality that certain company have taken a lot of money for a long time without producing many results. Specially if its fossil fuel companies that rubs people the wrong way. Just as giving money to Ford and GM wasn't the solution to get EV going. So its understandable that many people don't love the promotion of it. I am as anti-hydrogen as anybody but I do believe it has a place. However, it should be limited and only used in places where you really need it. So instead of using it in transportation, using it in the chemical industry makes much more sense. Its simply not needed for the overwhelming majority of transportation applications. And even for the the stuff that is left over its often questionable if its worth developing the new infrastructure. Using it for personal vehicle and most cargo transport is utterly idiotic. Using it for most trains is idiotic. The list goes on. Some people believe the massive steel CO2 use will be solved with hydrogen, but as with transport, there are better ways forward then that in my opinion. But again, hydrogen is getting the lions share of investment there too. In general I am much more against they 'hydrogen economy' idea and concept, rather then hydrogen. Using energy to split water is reasonable, but most of the time hydrogen is just a short temporary state until it gets turned into something else. Very different from the hydrogen economy people in-visioned. Another question is if electrolysis of access renewable production is really a great path forward.
birdyrooster 3y ago
Drive a new Supra and you will be disavowed of this notion. They are hella torquey with no lag. Outperforms EVs in many ways.
- pokepim 3y ago
  [dead]
- theluketaylor 3y ago
  Supra isn't a Toyota; it's a BMW, so it isn't exactly helping the case that Toyota is on the right development path. They have to use a partner for high performance applications since they can't be bothered to develop their own. B58 is a truly great combustion engine, but the idea any turbocharged ICE can compete with an electric motor for input lag is ridiculous. B58's twin scroll turbos certainly reduce lag compared with more run-of-the-mill turbo engines, but even naturally aspirated race engines with light flywheels feel laggy after driving even low-end BEVs.

_hypx 3y ago

That's a completely ignorant statement. Hydrogen cars actually exist and work exactly as advertised. There are no fundamental challenges. This reads like one of those anti-BEV posts from a decade ago. In both cases, the author is totally oblivious to the current state of technology. > It was never going to compete with electric. EVs have been slandered for so long that people just assumed we would come up with something better. Hydrogen cars are EVs. This is a deep misunderstanding of the issue.

alphager 3y ago
The production and storage of hydrogen is expensive, had the downside of requiring a large tank in the car and is less efficient than just using a battery.
- _hypx 3y ago
  The cost will drop to nearly zero, just like the rest of renewable energy production. Tanks are cheaper, smaller and lighter than li-ion batteries. Fuel cell cars are also EVs, just like BEVs. The "efficiency problem" is greatly exaggerated.
  - ffhhttt 3y ago
    > The cost will drop to nearly zero, just like the rest of renewable energy production How and why? I could say the same thing about batteries.. I assume hydrogen might be the best option for lorries and other heavy vehicles but what are its advantages for personal cars?
    - _hypx 3y ago
      Batteries will always been heavy and be dependent on large quantities of mined materials. The advantage of hydrogen is that it is made from water. So the raw materials used to make hydrogen will trend towards zero, similar to what happened with wind and solar.
WirelessGigabit 3y ago
> Hydrogen cars are EVs. The Toyota Mirai is a hydrogen Fuel Cell car. BMW tried to create a hydrogen ICE: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_Hydrogen_7 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_Hydrogen_7
- _hypx 3y ago
  I probably should have said "fuel cell cars are EVs." But yes, you can make an ICE powered by hydrogen. It is likely to be a niche product, mainly sports cars and perhaps some diesel engine replacements.
panick21_ 3y ago
> Hydrogen cars actually exist and work exactly as advertised. And if by that you mean very badly and very impractically then you are correct. > There are no fundamental challenges. Except, you know building them cheap at volume. Just a small thing. > This reads like one of those anti-BEV posts from a decade ago. Except it also reads like anti-Hydrogen EV post from a decade ago and since then BEV have made utterly insane amount of progress and hydrogen vehicles are still in the utterly sorry and embracing state they were 10 years ago.

staticautomatic 3y ago

I would not underestimate the amount of weight behind the development and commercialization of hydrogen technology. Everyone in the oil and gas industry, including natural gas utilities, has a strong incentive to figure out how to make it work.

_hypx 3y ago
Literally everyone has a massive incentive to make green hydrogen work. It is pretty fundamental to industry, manufacturing, agriculture, transportation, etc. There is no path to zero emissions without it. In reality, just a handful of vocal BEV fans oppose this technology on purely personal grounds.
- panick21_ 3y ago
  > Literally everyone has a massive incentive to make green hydrogen work. There is also the reality that certain company have taken a lot of money for a long time without producing many results. Specially if its fossil fuel companies that rubs people the wrong way. Just as giving money to Ford and GM wasn't the solution to get EV going. So its understandable that many people don't love the promotion of it. I am as anti-hydrogen as anybody but I do believe it has a place. However, it should be limited and only used in places where you really need it. So instead of using it in transportation, using it in the chemical industry makes much more sense. Its simply not needed for the overwhelming majority of transportation applications. And even for the the stuff that is left over its often questionable if its worth developing the new infrastructure. Using it for personal vehicle and most cargo transport is utterly idiotic. Using it for most trains is idiotic. The list goes on. Some people believe the massive steel CO2 use will be solved with hydrogen, but as with transport, there are better ways forward then that in my opinion. But again, hydrogen is getting the lions share of investment there too. In general I am much more against they 'hydrogen economy' idea and concept, rather then hydrogen. Using energy to split water is reasonable, but most of the time hydrogen is just a short temporary state until it gets turned into something else. Very different from the hydrogen economy people in-visioned. Another question is if electrolysis of access renewable production is really a great path forward.

birdyrooster 3y ago

Drive a new Supra and you will be disavowed of this notion. They are hella torquey with no lag. Outperforms EVs in many ways.

pokepim 3y ago
[dead]
theluketaylor 3y ago
Supra isn't a Toyota; it's a BMW, so it isn't exactly helping the case that Toyota is on the right development path. They have to use a partner for high performance applications since they can't be bothered to develop their own. B58 is a truly great combustion engine, but the idea any turbocharged ICE can compete with an electric motor for input lag is ridiculous. B58's twin scroll turbos certainly reduce lag compared with more run-of-the-mill turbo engines, but even naturally aspirated race engines with light flywheels feel laggy after driving even low-end BEVs.