4 ms·

Well, I do like mine better, which is closer to the STL, and for all containers. https://github.com/rurban/ctl/ https://github.com/rurban/ctl/

by rurban 3y ago

l-albertovich 3y ago
Honestly, who cares? On a more constructive side, I think adding some value by giving the poster some feedback or engaging in a conversation about the topic would be nice, otherwise it just sounds as an attempt to show off. I'm not a fan of these "header only" projects nor am I a fan of overly clever code because even though it's fun and rewarding to write it's not a great fit for larger or collaborative projects where consistently adhering to a coding style (hopefully one of the secure ones) and favoring readability over "coolness" are the way to go. People love to blame C for all of its footguns but not a lot of people like to write "boring" code which kinda sucks... Please don't take this personally, even though I have to admit that I felt somewhat irritated upon reading your comment it is my no means my intention to attack you with this rant.
- garganzol 3y ago
  > attempt to show off Why not? rurban's work is solid and should be shown off.
  - l-albertovich 3y ago
    I think it's not polite, if you just want to show something cool you did you could create your own thread. You don't interrupt a street musicians and start playing in front of the crew just because you think you are a "better" artist or that your version of the song is cooler right? It's common courtesy. On a side note, I looked at both codebases and even though I've already said that I wouldn't use either of them I have to say that I find rurbans to be somewhat messier and uglier so I have to disagree with you.
    - garganzol 3y ago
      Your attitude may apply to some situations, but in general preliminary judgements kill innovation. Next time after reading your comment, someone somewhere may remain silent without showing off their art, and the world will be missing the next Copernicus, Gauss, Wozniak, Stroustrup. If I have to choose between "polite" and "innovation", I choose "innovation" any time of day. This is the same kind of difference as to "diss" someone for no real reason as opposed to letting someone just be and "blossom" so they could share their enlightenment with everyone, and thus benefit us all.
      - squeaky-clean 3y ago
        I feel like rurban's comment is more likely to prevent someone from showing off in the future. Like what's the point when someone is just going to drop by and say "Mine is better, <link>" and then peace out with no constructive discussion?
      - l-albertovich 3y ago
        Well, you know, there is a way to share your work without putting others down or being dismissive. It's really valuable (and sometimes even enjoyable) for others to read (or even participate in) a conversation between two (or more) knowledgeable individuals who share their perspective and explain why they made the choices the made in their implementations (hint: here's where he could share some of their work!). In fact, this is the polar opposite of that and it's just sad.
flykespice 3y ago
I wonder why it's a so common pattern here that everytime someone shows their product, someone in the comments will show their own version in a not-so-implicit patronizing tone
- fsckboy 3y ago
  >I wonder why it's a so common pattern here that everytime someone ... it's only common for normies (ok, I guess that is a lot) to expend too much energy looking for emotional content. Just pay attention to the facts, here's a library/framework, here's another library/framework. See? now you know about two. Want emotion? ok, one guy seems proud of his, another guy maybe too proud of his? So what, you be the judge, look at the code.
  - flykespice 3y ago
    > it's only common for _normies_ that is very emotional of your part using borderline insults You don't need to spend any energy looking for emotional content when it's very face front ego inflated "mine is better" without any constructive feedback.
- rcme 3y ago
  Think about HN posts as a lightning rod for communal discussion rather than a pure show-and-tell and it makes more sense.
- loeg 3y ago
  Possibly because rurban is very consistent about showing up to C topic threads, mentioning his own work, and using that kind of tone.
- garganzol 3y ago
  I personally love that. Sometimes you'll find gems among all that information.
clibraries 3y ago
I think our projects are completely different and don't have the same goals. 1. You don't implement the most important algorithms. For example `stable_sort` for arrays. So right there, it's not even a substitute. One of my motivations from the start was simply to have `stable_sort` in C (to implement database queries). 2. Yours is a clever implementation of C++ features using macros. But it's not idiomatic C. If someone (or their team) wants to use your system, they must learn your macro language. My file can be included by someone who only knows C array, and will not intrude on any aspect of their C programming style. 3. Mine is intentionally not a data structure library, and avoids making allocations. There are countless data structure libraries for C. Very few catch on. That's because C programmers tend to manage the life cycle of data themselves. Furthermore, data structures are inter-woven with their data, as opposed to being separate containers. Besides that point, I see no advantage to yours over other data structure libraries. For example, the best C hash map implementations are written for uint64 keys. Fixing to a concrete type allows for tremendous optimization. I applaud the efforts in your project and wish it success. Our projects happen to draw on similar source material, but that's about it.
- rurban 3y ago
  Well, you do support only vector containers, by having the limitation of first++ as only iter increment. Your name "array" clashes with the C++ array, which is a compile-time sized vector. And your array is unsafe sized, as last is the only size provision, even unsafer than C++ with its unsafe iterators. With C++ you can it least still bounds check against the vector size. Your variant being static is indeed nice, the STL, CTL cannot do that, just MTL exists for that. Which supports all containers. E.g. Non-vector types allow for much faster inserts. You can only replace insitu, which is the opposite of functional. No backtracking. Manual copying needed. The spirit of the STL algorithms is to allocate, not overwrite. Re hash-map: this is not even finished. For now it's just a pointer-stable unordered_map with optimizations for all types, primitives or strings. optimized Swisstable (string) and Stanford hashes (u64) are in work (no time for that), and are indeed multiple times faster.
  - clibraries 3y ago

Well, I do like mine better, which is closer to the STL, and for all containers. https://github.com/rurban/ctl/ https://github.com/rurban/ctl/

by rurban 3y ago

Well, I do like mine better, which is closer to the STL, and for all containers. https://github.com/rurban/ctl/ https://github.com/rurban/ctl/

l-albertovich 3y ago

Honestly, who cares? On a more constructive side, I think adding some value by giving the poster some feedback or engaging in a conversation about the topic would be nice, otherwise it just sounds as an attempt to show off. I'm not a fan of these "header only" projects nor am I a fan of overly clever code because even though it's fun and rewarding to write it's not a great fit for larger or collaborative projects where consistently adhering to a coding style (hopefully one of the secure ones) and favoring readability over "coolness" are the way to go. People love to blame C for all of its footguns but not a lot of people like to write "boring" code which kinda sucks... Please don't take this personally, even though I have to admit that I felt somewhat irritated upon reading your comment it is my no means my intention to attack you with this rant.

garganzol 3y ago
> attempt to show off Why not? rurban's work is solid and should be shown off.
- l-albertovich 3y ago
  I think it's not polite, if you just want to show something cool you did you could create your own thread. You don't interrupt a street musicians and start playing in front of the crew just because you think you are a "better" artist or that your version of the song is cooler right? It's common courtesy. On a side note, I looked at both codebases and even though I've already said that I wouldn't use either of them I have to say that I find rurbans to be somewhat messier and uglier so I have to disagree with you.
  - garganzol 3y ago
    Your attitude may apply to some situations, but in general preliminary judgements kill innovation. Next time after reading your comment, someone somewhere may remain silent without showing off their art, and the world will be missing the next Copernicus, Gauss, Wozniak, Stroustrup. If I have to choose between "polite" and "innovation", I choose "innovation" any time of day. This is the same kind of difference as to "diss" someone for no real reason as opposed to letting someone just be and "blossom" so they could share their enlightenment with everyone, and thus benefit us all.
    - squeaky-clean 3y ago
      I feel like rurban's comment is more likely to prevent someone from showing off in the future. Like what's the point when someone is just going to drop by and say "Mine is better, <link>" and then peace out with no constructive discussion?
    - l-albertovich 3y ago
      Well, you know, there is a way to share your work without putting others down or being dismissive. It's really valuable (and sometimes even enjoyable) for others to read (or even participate in) a conversation between two (or more) knowledgeable individuals who share their perspective and explain why they made the choices the made in their implementations (hint: here's where he could share some of their work!). In fact, this is the polar opposite of that and it's just sad.

flykespice 3y ago

I wonder why it's a so common pattern here that everytime someone shows their product, someone in the comments will show their own version in a not-so-implicit patronizing tone

fsckboy 3y ago
>I wonder why it's a so common pattern here that everytime someone ... it's only common for normies (ok, I guess that is a lot) to expend too much energy looking for emotional content. Just pay attention to the facts, here's a library/framework, here's another library/framework. See? now you know about two. Want emotion? ok, one guy seems proud of his, another guy maybe too proud of his? So what, you be the judge, look at the code.
- flykespice 3y ago
  > it's only common for _normies_ that is very emotional of your part using borderline insults You don't need to spend any energy looking for emotional content when it's very face front ego inflated "mine is better" without any constructive feedback.
rcme 3y ago
Think about HN posts as a lightning rod for communal discussion rather than a pure show-and-tell and it makes more sense.
loeg 3y ago
Possibly because rurban is very consistent about showing up to C topic threads, mentioning his own work, and using that kind of tone.
garganzol 3y ago
I personally love that. Sometimes you'll find gems among all that information.

clibraries 3y ago

I think our projects are completely different and don't have the same goals. 1. You don't implement the most important algorithms. For example `stable_sort` for arrays. So right there, it's not even a substitute. One of my motivations from the start was simply to have `stable_sort` in C (to implement database queries). 2. Yours is a clever implementation of C++ features using macros. But it's not idiomatic C. If someone (or their team) wants to use your system, they must learn your macro language. My file can be included by someone who only knows C array, and will not intrude on any aspect of their C programming style. 3. Mine is intentionally not a data structure library, and avoids making allocations. There are countless data structure libraries for C. Very few catch on. That's because C programmers tend to manage the life cycle of data themselves. Furthermore, data structures are inter-woven with their data, as opposed to being separate containers. Besides that point, I see no advantage to yours over other data structure libraries. For example, the best C hash map implementations are written for uint64 keys. Fixing to a concrete type allows for tremendous optimization. I applaud the efforts in your project and wish it success. Our projects happen to draw on similar source material, but that's about it.

rurban 3y ago
Well, you do support only vector containers, by having the limitation of first++ as only iter increment. Your name "array" clashes with the C++ array, which is a compile-time sized vector. And your array is unsafe sized, as last is the only size provision, even unsafer than C++ with its unsafe iterators. With C++ you can it least still bounds check against the vector size. Your variant being static is indeed nice, the STL, CTL cannot do that, just MTL exists for that. Which supports all containers. E.g. Non-vector types allow for much faster inserts. You can only replace insitu, which is the opposite of functional. No backtracking. Manual copying needed. The spirit of the STL algorithms is to allocate, not overwrite. Re hash-map: this is not even finished. For now it's just a pointer-stable unordered_map with optimizations for all types, primitives or strings. optimized Swisstable (string) and Stanford hashes (u64) are in work (no time for that), and are indeed multiple times faster.
- clibraries 3y ago