5 ms·

I moved off of windows long before surfaces, not going back. Funny story, a few months ago we needed to setup an office windows 11 laptop (as part of a software

I moved off of windows long before surfaces, not going back. Funny story, a few months ago we needed to setup an office windows 11 laptop (as part of a software project). It used to be you could just boot the machine, cleanup bloatware, install some antivirus (after figuring out which one has not currently become adware), install basic applications, a copy of office, configure an email client or outlook (which is a nightmare to setup itself, with its weird mail folders that you can create but then can't delete without obscure windows voodoo because they become default windows mail folders or something...what the actual f!). Anyway, so I give this machine to a junior dev to setup, and some time later he comes to me saying he can't even get to the desktop screen because an online windows account is needed. I think, surely this can't be true because a month earlier we had done the same thing on the same windows version, on the same laptop model. So I tried and guess what, I could not. I googled, and there were all these tricks you could try to make the "create offline account" option appear, but it never did, so I had to create a throwaway windows account, with a real email alias, go through all the "confirm your email" steps, in order to access a computer that was just purchased. I even tried removing all network access and restarting, no luck. See related rant by me here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34983448 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34983448 If I could not set it up with an offline account, imagine a non techie, buys a laptop, goes somewhere with no network, tries to get work done and finds out it's impossible because of some dark pattern war that Microsoft is waging on it's customers. So no, problem is not just hardware, or how well this one machine runs windows X, Y, or Z. It is the fact that a person can't just walk into a store, buy a windows PC that is being sold (at whatever price point) and trust that it will enable them to do work, consistently, on the short, medium and long term with little to no additional IT effort.

jeroenhd 3y ago
Windows needs a Microsoft account, and that sucks. I completely agree with you on that. The ridiculous workarounds you need to go through to set up Windows can only be described as what you get when you fire your testers for a telemetry collection algorithm. On the other hand, I've never seen someone complain about Android/iOS/macOS requiring an online account, so I can see why Microsoft is so blind to criticism in this regard. That said, the bloatware on professional laptops is absolutely minimal. They do this nasty trick where they add Candy Crush to your start menu, but it's not even installed until you click on it. If you buy Windows Pro (the one you probably want anyway) you won't see this crap. As for the antivirus and Outlook: don't treat modern Windows like Windows XP. Windows Defender and a fully usable Outlook suite have been part of Windows for well over a decade now. You can install Outlook if you really want to, but it's really not necessary. I'll even go as far as say that Outlook Express and its evolutions were also working just fine all the way back in the XP days. All the machines I've seen ship with Windows 11 have come with Office preinstalled (with a trial, because Microsoft is a wallet leech) so I'm surprised you even needed to install a copy. I consider it bloatware myself because of the subscription model attached to it.
- figassis 3y ago
  I'm with you, but, there is no OSX pro. You buy a mac, you're done. My mother does not need a professional laptop, she needs a laptop. Why should people on paid non-professional laptops be actively sabotaged? Is this what professional should mean? What is the difference between a macbook, a macbook pro and a mac pro. You open them, everything is the same, except the pro models have more to offer in a way that is obvious to pros, and non pros (meaning non techies) wouldn't normally notice, it's not the non pro models that have to work against you to make you regret not forking out more.
  - jeroenhd 3y ago
    People like getting stuff for cheap. The crapware is subsidising the cosy of the laptop. If people were willing to put in the extra cash for a trash free OS, we would only have clear, "pro" versions of Windows.
    - figassis 3y ago
      No. There'd be a new more expensive tier of windows laptops, and the previous costlier one would be the new cheap. Because growth and quarterly earnings.

jeroenhd 3y ago

Windows needs a Microsoft account, and that sucks. I completely agree with you on that. The ridiculous workarounds you need to go through to set up Windows can only be described as what you get when you fire your testers for a telemetry collection algorithm. On the other hand, I've never seen someone complain about Android/iOS/macOS requiring an online account, so I can see why Microsoft is so blind to criticism in this regard. That said, the bloatware on professional laptops is absolutely minimal. They do this nasty trick where they add Candy Crush to your start menu, but it's not even installed until you click on it. If you buy Windows Pro (the one you probably want anyway) you won't see this crap. As for the antivirus and Outlook: don't treat modern Windows like Windows XP. Windows Defender and a fully usable Outlook suite have been part of Windows for well over a decade now. You can install Outlook if you really want to, but it's really not necessary. I'll even go as far as say that Outlook Express and its evolutions were also working just fine all the way back in the XP days. All the machines I've seen ship with Windows 11 have come with Office preinstalled (with a trial, because Microsoft is a wallet leech) so I'm surprised you even needed to install a copy. I consider it bloatware myself because of the subscription model attached to it.

figassis 3y ago
I'm with you, but, there is no OSX pro. You buy a mac, you're done. My mother does not need a professional laptop, she needs a laptop. Why should people on paid non-professional laptops be actively sabotaged? Is this what professional should mean? What is the difference between a macbook, a macbook pro and a mac pro. You open them, everything is the same, except the pro models have more to offer in a way that is obvious to pros, and non pros (meaning non techies) wouldn't normally notice, it's not the non pro models that have to work against you to make you regret not forking out more.
- jeroenhd 3y ago
  People like getting stuff for cheap. The crapware is subsidising the cosy of the laptop. If people were willing to put in the extra cash for a trash free OS, we would only have clear, "pro" versions of Windows.
  - figassis 3y ago
    No. There'd be a new more expensive tier of windows laptops, and the previous costlier one would be the new cheap. Because growth and quarterly earnings.