7 ms·

LED lights are meant to save energy. They’re creating glaring problems

19 points by slyall 3y ago

mdekkers 3y ago
> LED lights are meant to save energy. Spoiler alert: They do. They save up to 90% energy, and quality LED lighting can last much longer. Incorrectly installed LED lights cause light pollution, which is not so much an LED problem, as it is a fixture-design-and-installation problem.
- tayo42 3y ago
  No one cares about pollution though. We can't even get people to care about physical trash. Idk how you would get people to think about light (or sound)
- throwaway290 3y ago
  Ah that mythical "quality LED lighting". Anecdotally I saw the switch from normal bulbs to LEDs in my life and the lights break for me about as often. (One light broke in past month, still too lazy to buy a replacement.) So how much more do I need to pay for 90% more efficient LED light that delivers on its "works forever" promise compared to a regular bulb? Also doesn't have flicker? By the way, how dirty is its manufacturing compared to regular bulb?
  - mdekkers 3y ago
    Anecdotally, I mostly purchase Philips Hue, and one has yet to fail. Yeah, they are not cheap, but I’ve some of the lamps for many years and they are still doing fine. They have certainly outlasted incandescent bulbs, and at a fraction of the electricity consumption. High quality LEDs are widely proven to be a sound investment. A EUR 2 LED bulb may not fall into the “High Quality LED” group. All of this is widely researched and peer reviewed. The overall ecological impact of using LED bulbs is significantly improved over incandescent or fluorescent lamps.
    - throwaway290 3y ago
      Why is it ecologically better in manufacturing? A regular bulb is tungsten & glass, and LED is what? Unlike regular bulbs it's hard to find out manufacturing details for LED, but they usually seem plasticky (= oil and all that) and I guess a lot depends on the kind of phosphorus used etc.
      - mdekkers 3y ago
        > Why is it ecologically better? The significant reduction in energy use as well as the long lifespan of the lamps more than makes up for the metals used in the manufacture of the lamps. If this genuinely interests you there is plenty of research available from reputable sources.
        throwaway290 3y ago
        > The significant reduction in energy use as well as the long lifespan of the lamps I meant manufacturing. Longevity we already discussed. LED lamps die on me on the regular and I am not buying a Hue, I need a dumb bulb with a single dim warm color without flicker that's all. > If this genuinely interests you there is plenty of research available from reputable sources. I could not find a good summary on LED manufacturing after cursory search, if you don't really know yourself then it's okay to admit it (but maybe don't claim they're ecologically better without knowing the impact of their manufacturing).
        mdekkers 3y ago
        > I meant manufacturing. That’s cherrypicking, and also leads me to believe you are not genuinely interested in having and informed debate. > I am not buying a Hue for that money. > I could not find a good summary on LED manufacturing after cursory search. I have, you must not have been looking hard enough. I don’t know what to tell you, buddy. Enjoy your high electricity bills, or alternatively your life with expensive, flickering, poor quality LED bulbs, I guess. I don’t really see this discussion going anywhere for either of us, so good luck with it all.
  - amitprayal 3y ago
    Have you heard of Dubai Lamps
  - mdrzn 3y ago
    I've bought 6 RGB Led lights in 2015 and I have yet to change them. I use them all over my home on the daily with no issues, meanwhile I used to replace 1-2 incandescent bulbs per year at least.
    - throwaway290 3y ago
      Honest question: why buy so many RGB lights? Is it for parties? Or it's just impossible to buy a good quality non-RGB light anymore because vendors/retailers push thick margin products? I only use dim warm lights and dirt cheap regular bulbs work great. They last pretty long in that scenario (depends on the unit but that's also true for LEDs) and consume less energy too.
      - mdrzn 3y ago
        Sorry for the late reply: I bought LIFX lights because I wanted to have (almost) every bulb in the home remote controlled. I spent more than I had to because high lumens RGB lights are more expensive then white-hot lights. LIFX lights are 1100 lumens, and I had to put 2 for every 1 non-LED bulb I had to produce the same amount of light.
        throwaway290 3y ago
        OK, remote control is a use case. I am thinking of setting it up a different way to keep using regular bulbs but hadn't gotten around to it yet, home is small enough. I like dim lights indoors after dark so lumens are not an issue.
    - mcv 3y ago
      Same here. I think I bought my first LED light around 2008, and I think it's still working. I have had some cheap LED lights overheat in fixtures that clearly weren't suitable for them, but when used properly, LED lights can last for a very long time. Incandescents break constantly. Fluorescents occasionally. LEDs almost never, except in very specific cases. If you do have a LED light break within a decade, my advice is to replace the fixture. Or maybe try a very different type of LED (a weaker one with different heat management) in it.
ars 3y ago
> "They consume up to 90 percent less energy and can last up to 25 times longer than traditional incandescent lights." No one used incandescent street lights! Instead compare LEDs to sodium vapor lights and they don't come off so well. In fact they are worse, but the street looks nicer (it's in color). https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19853473 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19853473
- teslabox 3y ago
  > but the street looks nicer (it's in color). Streetlights aren't for doing your makeup, they're for seeing hazards in the roadway that are beyond the range of a vehicle's headlights. Orange is the ideal color for outdoor lighting, because of the way the light-sensitive proteins in our eyes are 'tuned' ('cones' and 'rods', 'photopic' to 'mesopic' and 'scotopic', etc). My notes from a few years ago: https://teslabox.com/2020/01/color-vision-night-vision-notes/ https://teslabox.com/2020/01/color-vision-night-vision-notes... - tl/dr: peripheral vision is tuned to blue, 2 of the 3 color-sensitive proteins are highly sensitive to orange light. Curious: why did you link to that particular thread? 66 comments, including one by yours truly. imho, this is the best of that thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19855545 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19855545
  - wkat4242 3y ago
    True but there's still the issue that you won't see objects of certain colors when illuminated by sodium lamps. That could be a traffic hazard. With full spectrum light that's only the case for full black objects. Colour rendering doesn't have to be perfect for this use but having full spectrum coverage does have its advantages.
    - ars 3y ago
      It's a very rare object that reflects nothing in the yellow-orange of sodium lamps. You'll just see a kind of black and white (except in yellow) version of the object. Also, they have high pressure sodium bulbs that widen the color, and then I don't think there are any objects you won't see.
teslabox 3y ago
It's a good article. I have an orange LED bulb in my bedside table lamp. It's fantastic. I have 2000K ('amber') bulbs elsewhere, and 2400K COB leds. These are pretty good except for when taking pictures. > Many people use much brighter LED lights than necessary, especially outside.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
amitprayal 3y ago
LED Bulbs are designed to fail, please see Dubai lamps
- hattar 3y ago
  What an I supposed to be seeing?
  - amstan 3y ago
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klaJqofCsu4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klaJqofCsu4
mcv 3y ago
Light pollution has been a problem since long before LED lights. I don't think I've ever been able to see stars in Amsterdam. I do think fighting light pollution is a worthy goal, but LED lights aren't the enemy. At least not specifically LEDs; all light are. But more careful use of LED lights could help us to shine that light only where we need it, and let less light escape. But it's going to require strict regulation; lots of companies don't care and just shine lights everywhere they can. > LED lights emit more blue light than regular bulbs. They don't have to. Rather famously, there are red and green LEDs. Blue ones are the most recent ones, but popular because they allow us to create any colour we want by mixing different colours. If you want amber LEDs, you can. Just turn down the amount of blue.

19 points by slyall 3y ago

> LED lights are meant to save energy. Spoiler alert: They do. They save up to 90% energy, and quality LED lighting can last much longer. Incorrectly installed LED lights cause light pollution, which is not so much an LED problem, as it is a fixture-design-and-installation problem.

tayo42 3y ago
No one cares about pollution though. We can't even get people to care about physical trash. Idk how you would get people to think about light (or sound)
throwaway290 3y ago
Ah that mythical "quality LED lighting". Anecdotally I saw the switch from normal bulbs to LEDs in my life and the lights break for me about as often. (One light broke in past month, still too lazy to buy a replacement.) So how much more do I need to pay for 90% more efficient LED light that delivers on its "works forever" promise compared to a regular bulb? Also doesn't have flicker? By the way, how dirty is its manufacturing compared to regular bulb?
- mdekkers 3y ago
  Anecdotally, I mostly purchase Philips Hue, and one has yet to fail. Yeah, they are not cheap, but I’ve some of the lamps for many years and they are still doing fine. They have certainly outlasted incandescent bulbs, and at a fraction of the electricity consumption. High quality LEDs are widely proven to be a sound investment. A EUR 2 LED bulb may not fall into the “High Quality LED” group. All of this is widely researched and peer reviewed. The overall ecological impact of using LED bulbs is significantly improved over incandescent or fluorescent lamps.
  - throwaway290 3y ago
    Why is it ecologically better in manufacturing? A regular bulb is tungsten & glass, and LED is what? Unlike regular bulbs it's hard to find out manufacturing details for LED, but they usually seem plasticky (= oil and all that) and I guess a lot depends on the kind of phosphorus used etc.
    - mdekkers 3y ago
      > Why is it ecologically better? The significant reduction in energy use as well as the long lifespan of the lamps more than makes up for the metals used in the manufacture of the lamps. If this genuinely interests you there is plenty of research available from reputable sources.
      - throwaway290 3y ago
        > The significant reduction in energy use as well as the long lifespan of the lamps I meant manufacturing. Longevity we already discussed. LED lamps die on me on the regular and I am not buying a Hue, I need a dumb bulb with a single dim warm color without flicker that's all. > If this genuinely interests you there is plenty of research available from reputable sources. I could not find a good summary on LED manufacturing after cursory search, if you don't really know yourself then it's okay to admit it (but maybe don't claim they're ecologically better without knowing the impact of their manufacturing).
        mdekkers 3y ago
        > I meant manufacturing. That’s cherrypicking, and also leads me to believe you are not genuinely interested in having and informed debate. > I am not buying a Hue for that money. > I could not find a good summary on LED manufacturing after cursory search. I have, you must not have been looking hard enough. I don’t know what to tell you, buddy. Enjoy your high electricity bills, or alternatively your life with expensive, flickering, poor quality LED bulbs, I guess. I don’t really see this discussion going anywhere for either of us, so good luck with it all.
- amitprayal 3y ago
  Have you heard of Dubai Lamps
- mdrzn 3y ago
  I've bought 6 RGB Led lights in 2015 and I have yet to change them. I use them all over my home on the daily with no issues, meanwhile I used to replace 1-2 incandescent bulbs per year at least.
  - throwaway290 3y ago
    Honest question: why buy so many RGB lights? Is it for parties? Or it's just impossible to buy a good quality non-RGB light anymore because vendors/retailers push thick margin products? I only use dim warm lights and dirt cheap regular bulbs work great. They last pretty long in that scenario (depends on the unit but that's also true for LEDs) and consume less energy too.
    - mdrzn 3y ago
      Sorry for the late reply: I bought LIFX lights because I wanted to have (almost) every bulb in the home remote controlled. I spent more than I had to because high lumens RGB lights are more expensive then white-hot lights. LIFX lights are 1100 lumens, and I had to put 2 for every 1 non-LED bulb I had to produce the same amount of light.
      - throwaway290 3y ago
        OK, remote control is a use case. I am thinking of setting it up a different way to keep using regular bulbs but hadn't gotten around to it yet, home is small enough. I like dim lights indoors after dark so lumens are not an issue.
  - mcv 3y ago
    Same here. I think I bought my first LED light around 2008, and I think it's still working. I have had some cheap LED lights overheat in fixtures that clearly weren't suitable for them, but when used properly, LED lights can last for a very long time. Incandescents break constantly. Fluorescents occasionally. LEDs almost never, except in very specific cases. If you do have a LED light break within a decade, my advice is to replace the fixture. Or maybe try a very different type of LED (a weaker one with different heat management) in it.

ars 3y ago

> "They consume up to 90 percent less energy and can last up to 25 times longer than traditional incandescent lights." No one used incandescent street lights! Instead compare LEDs to sodium vapor lights and they don't come off so well. In fact they are worse, but the street looks nicer (it's in color). https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19853473 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19853473

teslabox 3y ago
> but the street looks nicer (it's in color). Streetlights aren't for doing your makeup, they're for seeing hazards in the roadway that are beyond the range of a vehicle's headlights. Orange is the ideal color for outdoor lighting, because of the way the light-sensitive proteins in our eyes are 'tuned' ('cones' and 'rods', 'photopic' to 'mesopic' and 'scotopic', etc). My notes from a few years ago: https://teslabox.com/2020/01/color-vision-night-vision-notes/ https://teslabox.com/2020/01/color-vision-night-vision-notes... - tl/dr: peripheral vision is tuned to blue, 2 of the 3 color-sensitive proteins are highly sensitive to orange light. Curious: why did you link to that particular thread? 66 comments, including one by yours truly. imho, this is the best of that thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19855545 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19855545
- wkat4242 3y ago
  True but there's still the issue that you won't see objects of certain colors when illuminated by sodium lamps. That could be a traffic hazard. With full spectrum light that's only the case for full black objects. Colour rendering doesn't have to be perfect for this use but having full spectrum coverage does have its advantages.
  - ars 3y ago
    It's a very rare object that reflects nothing in the yellow-orange of sodium lamps. You'll just see a kind of black and white (except in yellow) version of the object. Also, they have high pressure sodium bulbs that widen the color, and then I don't think there are any objects you won't see.

teslabox 3y ago

It's a good article. I have an orange LED bulb in my bedside table lamp. It's fantastic. I have 2000K ('amber') bulbs elsewhere, and 2400K COB leds. These are pretty good except for when taking pictures. > Many people use much brighter LED lights than necessary, especially outside.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

amitprayal 3y ago

LED Bulbs are designed to fail, please see Dubai lamps

hattar 3y ago
What an I supposed to be seeing?
- amstan 3y ago
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klaJqofCsu4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klaJqofCsu4

mcv 3y ago

Light pollution has been a problem since long before LED lights. I don't think I've ever been able to see stars in Amsterdam. I do think fighting light pollution is a worthy goal, but LED lights aren't the enemy. At least not specifically LEDs; all light are. But more careful use of LED lights could help us to shine that light only where we need it, and let less light escape. But it's going to require strict regulation; lots of companies don't care and just shine lights everywhere they can. > LED lights emit more blue light than regular bulbs. They don't have to. Rather famously, there are red and green LEDs. Blue ones are the most recent ones, but popular because they allow us to create any colour we want by mixing different colours. If you want amber LEDs, you can. Just turn down the amount of blue.