24 ms·

Growing a Language (1998) [video]

111 points by swatson741 3y ago

082349872349872 3y ago
it was the math prof who made "life" who gave (with a friend hop) me the game where one speaks with just these base words.
- bigdict 3y ago
  what? john conway? what words?
  - justinpombrio 3y ago
    Yes, that is the math prof. And they mean, words with just one -- how do you say -- speak beat?
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - teddyh 3y ago
      ITYM “syllable”
      - jodrellblank 3y ago
        That can not be a word, it is too big. One pulse per word is the most there can be.
      - pansa2 3y ago
        Tell me you’ve not watched the talk...
        teddyh 3y ago
        The talk defines the word.
ElevenLathe 3y ago
[flagged]
Pet_Ant 3y ago
If you've never seen this video you owe it to your self to watch it. It really I think captures the essence of systems thinking.
- mywittyname 3y ago
  It's also a master class in story telling, which you rarely see the context of a technical presentation.
- amno 3y ago
  Yeah, I have never seen it before, but I saw it yesterday, and it is easily the best talk on programming languages, and programming, I have ever seen. I have posted it to /r/cpp and interestingly some mode removed it as C++ was only "briefly mentioned". To me, it feels quite obvious that "modern C++" has taken a note from that talk, and its efforts seem to be towards what Steel describe there, as a big language that lets people the possibility to extend the language and look relatively the same as the native syntax via its new meta programming facilities. That talk also answers many complaints about C++ heard today of being large, hard, write-only etc. Also, in the historical context, I think it is quite a peak towards Gosling & Co, and Java, which at the time was heavily marketed not seldom by shunning of some of the C++ features, notably operator overloading and multiple inheritance.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
seanhunter 3y ago
On a separate note, Guy Steele's Common Lisp Book is awesome. https://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/cltl2.html https://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/cltl2.html It's a bit of a regret for me that it was always a hobby thing and my career never took me in a direction where I would have got to use it in a professional capacity.
- djha-skin 3y ago
  I love all the dry jokes in it. Just scattered thither and yon like it was a children's book, easter eggs found in the most unlikely places.
  - kagevf 3y ago
    Do you know if it's common to read CLTL2 from front to back, or just use it strictly as a reference?
    - tmtvl 3y ago
      It's probably better to read it front to back because CLTL2 isn't 1994 standard Common Lisp.
      - kagevf 3y ago
        Right, CLTL2 doesn't conform to the ansi spec. I just wonder if it's common to read all the way through, or as a reference in addition to CLHS, to maybe get some additional perspective on why a feature is a certain way, etc ...
- nabla9 3y ago
  I also loved his C Reference manual. Dry jokes funny but educational examples like, this example of micro-optimization. >here is an example of how good intentions can lead to chaos: switch(x) default: if (prime(x)) case 2: case 3: case 5: case 7: process_prime(x); else case 4: case 6: case 8: case 9: case 10: process_composite(x); >This is, frankly, the most bizarre switch statement we have ever seen that still pretenses to be purposeful
bsaul 3y ago
Funny how the very first sentence of the talk "i think you all know what a man is" would now be subject of heated discussions. oh the times they are a changin...
dang 3y ago
Related: Growing a Language (1998) [video] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24383919 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24383919 - Sept 2020 (34 comments) Growing a Language, by Guy Steele (1998) [video] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16847691 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16847691 - April 2018 (20 comments) Growing a Language (1998) [pdf] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10153391 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10153391 - Sept 2015 (8 comments) Growing a Language (1998) [video] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9918286 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9918286 - July 2015 (10 comments) Growing a Language, by Guy Steele - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3744125 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3744125 - March 2012 (5 comments) Guy Steele: Growing a Language (video 53:30) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2359174 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2359174 - March 2011 (21 comments) Growing a Language, by Guy Steele - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=827107 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=827107 - Sept 2009 (2 comments) Growing a Language, by Guy Steele [video] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=626380 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=626380 - May 2009 (3 comments) Growing a Language by Guy Steele - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=152311 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=152311 - April 2008 (7 comments) Worth reading or rereading: Guy Steele's Growing a Language (PDF) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=92542 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=92542 - Dec 2007 (1 comment) ---- p.s.: reposts are fine after a year or so; links to past threads are just to satisfy extra-curious readers. Also it's good for the classics to reappear periodically, so new cohorts of HN users get to know them and the culture can propagate!
swyx 3y ago
One of my favorite talks of all time. I took personal notes here: https://www.swyx.io/notes-on-growing-a-language-by-guy-steele-5501 https://www.swyx.io/notes-on-growing-a-language-by-guy-steel...
tomcam 3y ago
Exquisite. Is it only my impression that beginning a presentation with first principles is far rarer than it used to be? It was both reassuring and refreshing. His spoken language goes beyond precise and into… anachronism.

111 points by swatson741 3y ago

it was the math prof who made "life" who gave (with a friend hop) me the game where one speaks with just these base words.

bigdict 3y ago
what? john conway? what words?
- justinpombrio 3y ago
  Yes, that is the math prof. And they mean, words with just one -- how do you say -- speak beat?
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - teddyh 3y ago
    ITYM “syllable”
    - jodrellblank 3y ago
      That can not be a word, it is too big. One pulse per word is the most there can be.
    - pansa2 3y ago
      Tell me you’ve not watched the talk...
      - teddyh 3y ago
        The talk defines the word.

ElevenLathe 3y ago

[flagged]

Pet_Ant 3y ago

If you've never seen this video you owe it to your self to watch it. It really I think captures the essence of systems thinking.

mywittyname 3y ago
It's also a master class in story telling, which you rarely see the context of a technical presentation.
amno 3y ago
Yeah, I have never seen it before, but I saw it yesterday, and it is easily the best talk on programming languages, and programming, I have ever seen. I have posted it to /r/cpp and interestingly some mode removed it as C++ was only "briefly mentioned". To me, it feels quite obvious that "modern C++" has taken a note from that talk, and its efforts seem to be towards what Steel describe there, as a big language that lets people the possibility to extend the language and look relatively the same as the native syntax via its new meta programming facilities. That talk also answers many complaints about C++ heard today of being large, hard, write-only etc. Also, in the historical context, I think it is quite a peak towards Gosling & Co, and Java, which at the time was heavily marketed not seldom by shunning of some of the C++ features, notably operator overloading and multiple inheritance.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

seanhunter 3y ago

On a separate note, Guy Steele's Common Lisp Book is awesome. https://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/cltl2.html https://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/cltl2.html It's a bit of a regret for me that it was always a hobby thing and my career never took me in a direction where I would have got to use it in a professional capacity.

djha-skin 3y ago
I love all the dry jokes in it. Just scattered thither and yon like it was a children's book, easter eggs found in the most unlikely places.
- kagevf 3y ago
  Do you know if it's common to read CLTL2 from front to back, or just use it strictly as a reference?
  - tmtvl 3y ago
    It's probably better to read it front to back because CLTL2 isn't 1994 standard Common Lisp.
    - kagevf 3y ago
      Right, CLTL2 doesn't conform to the ansi spec. I just wonder if it's common to read all the way through, or as a reference in addition to CLHS, to maybe get some additional perspective on why a feature is a certain way, etc ...
nabla9 3y ago
I also loved his C Reference manual. Dry jokes funny but educational examples like, this example of micro-optimization. >here is an example of how good intentions can lead to chaos: switch(x) default: if (prime(x)) case 2: case 3: case 5: case 7: process_prime(x); else case 4: case 6: case 8: case 9: case 10: process_composite(x); >This is, frankly, the most bizarre switch statement we have ever seen that still pretenses to be purposeful

bsaul 3y ago

Funny how the very first sentence of the talk "i think you all know what a man is" would now be subject of heated discussions. oh the times they are a changin...

dang 3y ago

Related: Growing a Language (1998) [video] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24383919 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24383919 - Sept 2020 (34 comments) Growing a Language, by Guy Steele (1998) [video] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16847691 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16847691 - April 2018 (20 comments) Growing a Language (1998) [pdf] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10153391 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10153391 - Sept 2015 (8 comments) Growing a Language (1998) [video] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9918286 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9918286 - July 2015 (10 comments) Growing a Language, by Guy Steele - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3744125 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3744125 - March 2012 (5 comments) Guy Steele: Growing a Language (video 53:30) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2359174 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2359174 - March 2011 (21 comments) Growing a Language, by Guy Steele - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=827107 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=827107 - Sept 2009 (2 comments) Growing a Language, by Guy Steele [video] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=626380 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=626380 - May 2009 (3 comments) Growing a Language by Guy Steele - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=152311 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=152311 - April 2008 (7 comments) Worth reading or rereading: Guy Steele's Growing a Language (PDF) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=92542 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=92542 - Dec 2007 (1 comment) ---- p.s.: reposts are fine after a year or so; links to past threads are just to satisfy extra-curious readers. Also it's good for the classics to reappear periodically, so new cohorts of HN users get to know them and the culture can propagate!

swyx 3y ago

One of my favorite talks of all time. I took personal notes here: https://www.swyx.io/notes-on-growing-a-language-by-guy-steele-5501 https://www.swyx.io/notes-on-growing-a-language-by-guy-steel...

tomcam 3y ago

Exquisite. Is it only my impression that beginning a presentation with first principles is far rarer than it used to be? It was both reassuring and refreshing. His spoken language goes beyond precise and into… anachronism.