6 ms·

Apple: We're responsible for 514,000 American jobs

14 points by TechBlock1 15y ago

doctorwho 15y ago
This is pathetic. Apple attempts to justify huge markups on cheap foreign labour by boasting about how many jobs it has created at home. Pure bullshit. It has tocreate those jobs to sustain its business. It does not have to use foreign labour, but it does because it's cheaper. If they could outource their entire operation and see X times profi, you can be absolutely sure they would. In a heartbeat.
- nwjsmith 15y ago
  It's not just that the labour is cheap. The manufacturing in China is far more integrated and nimble than it is in America. China is winning on more than just price. See this article: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/22/business/apple-america-and-a-squeezed-middle-class.html?pagewanted=all http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/22/business/apple-america-and... Also, Apple isn't justifying its huge margins. Everyone who buys an Apple product is.
  - doctorwho 15y ago
    Apple is TRYING to justify it. If they didn't care about the negative publicity they would not have put that site up. I'm not disputing the fact that it's cheaper to do this stuff overseas, just that Apple is not being honest and just saying that, instead they're trying to steer (SPIN) the conversation so they look good instead of greedy.
- shareme 15y ago
  and when FOXconn switches to robotic factories in the next 3 years than what will be your complaint? What that Japan is making money selling and out-fitting those factories? This is not on Apple..America lost the Automation race to Japan by being very strategically stupid Apple is not to blame for that mistake
  - doctorwho 15y ago
    It's not about blame, it's about being honest about why you're doing something. Apple is not being honest, they never have. Secrecy and spin rule the world at Apple. I don't care if you hire child robots to work in your factories, just don't try and blow sunshine up my ass about why you're doing it. They're a big greedy corporation that likes money. That's the story.
    - philwelch 15y ago
      They're a big greedy corporation that likes money. That's the story. They're a big, successful corporation that likes to create great products and great customer experiences. Greed gets you Goldman Sachs or something. Greed doesn't inspire companies to improve customer service by keeping their support hotlines based in the US, it inspires them to outsource their hotlines to poor, nominally "English-speaking" countries overseas. The greedy PC and phone manufacturers didn't build expensive, high-end retail stores, they just shipped all their crap to big box stores, Amazon, and the carrier stores. It turns out that Apple is profitable, because people like all those things Apple splurged on. So call it enlightened self-interest, but greed, in the sense of cutting corners to reduce costs, it is not. The next time you call Dell's customer service and end up talking to someone called "Mike" who has a suspiciously thick South Asian accent, or the next time you try to call Google's customer service before realizing it doesn't exist, you'll understand what mere greed leads people to do.
    - joelrunyon 15y ago
      You sound angry.
- benihana 15y ago
  I don't understand why people get mad at Apple. Get mad at American consumers for demanding, no worse, feeling entitled to paying extremely low prices for very high tech things. Apple could use American manufacturing and either produce crap at low profits, or extremely expensive gadgets no one could afford. Instead, they produce millions of devices people want and buy, then have to explain themselves for not employed good old fashioned American labor in their factories. They're creating high tech, high-skilled jobs (product design, software development, hardware diagnosis and repair) at home, and outsourcing the low-tech low-skilled jobs to foreigners.
  - doctorwho 15y ago
    I'm happy they're doing well. They have made smart business decisions and some great products. I just wish they'd stop trying to spin everything. They made the decision to ship jobs overseas and that was good for their bottom line, but instead of talking about that, they talk about how many US jobs they've created. It's not an honest conversation.
  - rsanchez1 15y ago
    It's not that people feel entitled to paying extremely low prices. People will just go with the cheapest option. I don't go with cheaper options because I feel entitled. I go with cheaper options because I want to save money. They once did create expensive gadgets no one could afford. Macs used to cost a lot more than PCs. Then Apple moved labor overseas, started pricing their products competitively, and now they have the highest market cap.
tlack 15y ago
I wish Apple would turn its gift for innovation toward manufacturing so they can bring those jobs back home to America, or at least some percentage of them. That would be a very noble effort on their part.
- w1ntermute 15y ago
  Steve Jobs told Obama point blank that those jobs are never coming back. We're better off looking for alternatives.
  - kmfrk 15y ago
    I think Apple would be a force to be reckoned with in union-busting. As I understand, everything is done to prevent Apple Store employees from unionizing already. And hey, I understand the need for a break-neck pace for a company that constantly disrupts its own market and has to turn around the ship in the blink of an eye in order to stay on top of the business. I don't know if it's possible to bring back the manufacturing jobs to the States without breaking basic labour condition rights.
    - philwelch 15y ago
      > As I understand, everything is done to prevent Apple Store employees from unionizing already. It amuses me how modern-day union-busters like Apple and Whole Foods do everything to prevent their employees from unionizing by...providing good pay and benefits. Funny that.
  - raganwald 15y ago
    They will only come back if you can convince an American to be ‘integrated and nimble’, translation, to live in a dorm attached to the factory so he can be woken in the middle of the night, given a biscuit and a cup of tea, and put on a unplanned twelve-hour shift. We needn’t debate whether this is right or wrong, good or bad, it is enough to recognize that the likelihood of negotiating such arrangements with Americans is remote.
  - v2interactive 15y ago
kumarm 15y ago
Trying to bring back manufacturing to US seems a short sighted move. As 3D printing improves, is there really a future for manufacturing? Future Generations are not going to buy manufactured products from China, they are gonna print at local mall.
SeoxyS 15y ago
Quick math on the iOS app economy: > The app revolution has added more than 210,000 iOS jobs to the U.S. economy since the introduction of iPhone in 2007 > Apple has paid more than $4 billion in royalties to developers through the App Store The app store has been around since summer '08, so let's say it's been around for 3.5 years. $4B / 210,000 / 3.5 = $5442.17 per annum Converted to an hourly wage, that's $2.62/hr (or $454 monthly). Way below minimum wage. Either Apple has some funky math going on here, or they've created 210k very crappy jobs. Note: I'm ignoring Advertising and B2B revenue here, so when you factor that in I'm sure the gross product jumps quite a bit. Still, Apple ignores that part of the market as well, so either they should publish a gross product for the iOS economy, or they're leading me to the conclusion above.
- pooriaazimi 15y ago
  Some notes, on why I think your calculation while interesting, is way off: 1. You shouldn't consider summer 2008 as epoch. 2. Not all of those $4B were paid to US developers (I'd guess less than 60% of that) 3. A huge number of apps (thousands) on the App Store are free (from Google, Facebook, Amazon, Zynga, ...) - For all we know, all such free apps have been created by a team of 10-15 iOS developers/testers/etc. I'm also skeptical about the claim, but I think that your calculation wasn't a good one.
  - b0sk 15y ago
    Well. in actuality the $4B is paid according to Pareto distribution ( Pareto principle). That means a small chunk of developers with highly successful apps are going to get a large chunk of that $4B. This makes Apple's claim actually worse.
- ktsmith 15y ago
  Their number of registered developers and jobs from iOS is probably also skewed by failing to remove inactive developers.
- joelrunyon 15y ago
  You're also failing to account for revenue created through the ad platforms on the free apps. I imagine that'd be a sizeable chunk that's not included in the 4B figure.
doctorwho 15y ago
Apple fanboys calm down! I'm not mad about how well Apple is doing, they'e earned their success. They've made some great products and they've made some great business decisions, like using offshore manufacturing. My complaint with Apple is with choice to start a dishonest conversation about jobs in the US instead of talking about why they use foreign manfacturing. They don't want to talk about their "China problem" because it's unpopulart so they spin a story about how many US jobs they have created to distract you. If they were proud of their offshore manufacturing, why don't they have a page about that? Don't hold your breath waiting ro that one. Why would they put that page up? What's in it for them? It distracts you from the problem and makes you like them for creating jobs they had to create anyay.
- glassx 15y ago
  > They don't want to talk about their "China problem" What else do you want Apple to say? It is common knowledge that they outsource manufacturing overseas, and it's common knowledge that they do it simply to maximize profits, however, it's not something to be publicly proud or ashamed of, it's just business. Making lots of jobs in America, OTOH, is very positive.
  - doctorwho 15y ago
    They don't just want to avoid talking about it, they are actively working to spin it. If they had said nothing about jobs in the US, which came completely out of nowhere, I would have a lot more respect for them. They are acting ashamed by trying to distract everyone. Yes, be proud that you created jobs, but be honest about why you're suddenly trying to draw attention to that fact.
noodly 15y ago
Apple: 514 000 jobs Healthcare: 14 336 000 jobs [1] Healthcare embarrasses Apple. [1] http://www.bls.gov/oco/cg/cgs035.htm http://www.bls.gov/oco/cg/cgs035.htm
- quesera 15y ago
  Umm. Healthcare is an industry that touches 100% of citizens' lives. Apple is a corporation that sells a few percent of the computers and phones bought each year. What is embarrassing about that?
  - noodly 15y ago
    Apple says, "As a result, we’ve created or supported more than 500,000 jobs for U.S. workers: from the engineer who helped invent the iPad to the delivery person who brings it to your door" [1] It tries to include every person, just to make the number of jobs higher (it even includes healthcare workers). Healthcare includes only jobs strictly associated with it - and that's embarrassing for Apple which had to include other industries. "47,000 jobs at Apple" [1] - that's the real number of Apple jobs, and it's comparable with Intel (45375 jobs, 55% of their worldwide employment) [2] [1] http://www.apple.com/about/job-creation/ http://www.apple.com/about/job-creation/ [2] http://bit.ly/AdgusU http://bit.ly/AdgusU [PDF] Intel "2010 Annual Report and Form 10-K"

14 points by TechBlock1 15y ago

This is pathetic. Apple attempts to justify huge markups on cheap foreign labour by boasting about how many jobs it has created at home. Pure bullshit. It has tocreate those jobs to sustain its business. It does not have to use foreign labour, but it does because it's cheaper. If they could outource their entire operation and see X times profi, you can be absolutely sure they would. In a heartbeat.

nwjsmith 15y ago
It's not just that the labour is cheap. The manufacturing in China is far more integrated and nimble than it is in America. China is winning on more than just price. See this article: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/22/business/apple-america-and-a-squeezed-middle-class.html?pagewanted=all http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/22/business/apple-america-and... Also, Apple isn't justifying its huge margins. Everyone who buys an Apple product is.
- doctorwho 15y ago
  Apple is TRYING to justify it. If they didn't care about the negative publicity they would not have put that site up. I'm not disputing the fact that it's cheaper to do this stuff overseas, just that Apple is not being honest and just saying that, instead they're trying to steer (SPIN) the conversation so they look good instead of greedy.
shareme 15y ago
and when FOXconn switches to robotic factories in the next 3 years than what will be your complaint? What that Japan is making money selling and out-fitting those factories? This is not on Apple..America lost the Automation race to Japan by being very strategically stupid Apple is not to blame for that mistake
- doctorwho 15y ago
  It's not about blame, it's about being honest about why you're doing something. Apple is not being honest, they never have. Secrecy and spin rule the world at Apple. I don't care if you hire child robots to work in your factories, just don't try and blow sunshine up my ass about why you're doing it. They're a big greedy corporation that likes money. That's the story.
  - philwelch 15y ago
    They're a big greedy corporation that likes money. That's the story. They're a big, successful corporation that likes to create great products and great customer experiences. Greed gets you Goldman Sachs or something. Greed doesn't inspire companies to improve customer service by keeping their support hotlines based in the US, it inspires them to outsource their hotlines to poor, nominally "English-speaking" countries overseas. The greedy PC and phone manufacturers didn't build expensive, high-end retail stores, they just shipped all their crap to big box stores, Amazon, and the carrier stores. It turns out that Apple is profitable, because people like all those things Apple splurged on. So call it enlightened self-interest, but greed, in the sense of cutting corners to reduce costs, it is not. The next time you call Dell's customer service and end up talking to someone called "Mike" who has a suspiciously thick South Asian accent, or the next time you try to call Google's customer service before realizing it doesn't exist, you'll understand what mere greed leads people to do.
  - joelrunyon 15y ago
    You sound angry.
benihana 15y ago
I don't understand why people get mad at Apple. Get mad at American consumers for demanding, no worse, feeling entitled to paying extremely low prices for very high tech things. Apple could use American manufacturing and either produce crap at low profits, or extremely expensive gadgets no one could afford. Instead, they produce millions of devices people want and buy, then have to explain themselves for not employed good old fashioned American labor in their factories. They're creating high tech, high-skilled jobs (product design, software development, hardware diagnosis and repair) at home, and outsourcing the low-tech low-skilled jobs to foreigners.
- doctorwho 15y ago
  I'm happy they're doing well. They have made smart business decisions and some great products. I just wish they'd stop trying to spin everything. They made the decision to ship jobs overseas and that was good for their bottom line, but instead of talking about that, they talk about how many US jobs they've created. It's not an honest conversation.
- rsanchez1 15y ago
  It's not that people feel entitled to paying extremely low prices. People will just go with the cheapest option. I don't go with cheaper options because I feel entitled. I go with cheaper options because I want to save money. They once did create expensive gadgets no one could afford. Macs used to cost a lot more than PCs. Then Apple moved labor overseas, started pricing their products competitively, and now they have the highest market cap.

tlack 15y ago

I wish Apple would turn its gift for innovation toward manufacturing so they can bring those jobs back home to America, or at least some percentage of them. That would be a very noble effort on their part.

w1ntermute 15y ago
Steve Jobs told Obama point blank that those jobs are never coming back. We're better off looking for alternatives.
- kmfrk 15y ago
  I think Apple would be a force to be reckoned with in union-busting. As I understand, everything is done to prevent Apple Store employees from unionizing already. And hey, I understand the need for a break-neck pace for a company that constantly disrupts its own market and has to turn around the ship in the blink of an eye in order to stay on top of the business. I don't know if it's possible to bring back the manufacturing jobs to the States without breaking basic labour condition rights.
  - philwelch 15y ago
    > As I understand, everything is done to prevent Apple Store employees from unionizing already. It amuses me how modern-day union-busters like Apple and Whole Foods do everything to prevent their employees from unionizing by...providing good pay and benefits. Funny that.
- raganwald 15y ago
  They will only come back if you can convince an American to be ‘integrated and nimble’, translation, to live in a dorm attached to the factory so he can be woken in the middle of the night, given a biscuit and a cup of tea, and put on a unplanned twelve-hour shift. We needn’t debate whether this is right or wrong, good or bad, it is enough to recognize that the likelihood of negotiating such arrangements with Americans is remote.
- v2interactive 15y ago

kumarm 15y ago

Trying to bring back manufacturing to US seems a short sighted move. As 3D printing improves, is there really a future for manufacturing? Future Generations are not going to buy manufactured products from China, they are gonna print at local mall.

SeoxyS 15y ago

Quick math on the iOS app economy: > The app revolution has added more than 210,000 iOS jobs to the U.S. economy since the introduction of iPhone in 2007 > Apple has paid more than $4 billion in royalties to developers through the App Store The app store has been around since summer '08, so let's say it's been around for 3.5 years. $4B / 210,000 / 3.5 = $5442.17 per annum Converted to an hourly wage, that's $2.62/hr (or $454 monthly). Way below minimum wage. Either Apple has some funky math going on here, or they've created 210k very crappy jobs. Note: I'm ignoring Advertising and B2B revenue here, so when you factor that in I'm sure the gross product jumps quite a bit. Still, Apple ignores that part of the market as well, so either they should publish a gross product for the iOS economy, or they're leading me to the conclusion above.

pooriaazimi 15y ago
Some notes, on why I think your calculation while interesting, is way off: 1. You shouldn't consider summer 2008 as epoch. 2. Not all of those $4B were paid to US developers (I'd guess less than 60% of that) 3. A huge number of apps (thousands) on the App Store are free (from Google, Facebook, Amazon, Zynga, ...) - For all we know, all such free apps have been created by a team of 10-15 iOS developers/testers/etc. I'm also skeptical about the claim, but I think that your calculation wasn't a good one.
- b0sk 15y ago
  Well. in actuality the $4B is paid according to Pareto distribution ( Pareto principle). That means a small chunk of developers with highly successful apps are going to get a large chunk of that $4B. This makes Apple's claim actually worse.
ktsmith 15y ago
Their number of registered developers and jobs from iOS is probably also skewed by failing to remove inactive developers.
joelrunyon 15y ago
You're also failing to account for revenue created through the ad platforms on the free apps. I imagine that'd be a sizeable chunk that's not included in the 4B figure.

doctorwho 15y ago

Apple fanboys calm down! I'm not mad about how well Apple is doing, they'e earned their success. They've made some great products and they've made some great business decisions, like using offshore manufacturing. My complaint with Apple is with choice to start a dishonest conversation about jobs in the US instead of talking about why they use foreign manfacturing. They don't want to talk about their "China problem" because it's unpopulart so they spin a story about how many US jobs they have created to distract you. If they were proud of their offshore manufacturing, why don't they have a page about that? Don't hold your breath waiting ro that one. Why would they put that page up? What's in it for them? It distracts you from the problem and makes you like them for creating jobs they had to create anyay.

glassx 15y ago
> They don't want to talk about their "China problem" What else do you want Apple to say? It is common knowledge that they outsource manufacturing overseas, and it's common knowledge that they do it simply to maximize profits, however, it's not something to be publicly proud or ashamed of, it's just business. Making lots of jobs in America, OTOH, is very positive.
- doctorwho 15y ago
  They don't just want to avoid talking about it, they are actively working to spin it. If they had said nothing about jobs in the US, which came completely out of nowhere, I would have a lot more respect for them. They are acting ashamed by trying to distract everyone. Yes, be proud that you created jobs, but be honest about why you're suddenly trying to draw attention to that fact.

noodly 15y ago

Apple: 514 000 jobs Healthcare: 14 336 000 jobs [1] Healthcare embarrasses Apple. [1] http://www.bls.gov/oco/cg/cgs035.htm http://www.bls.gov/oco/cg/cgs035.htm

quesera 15y ago
Umm. Healthcare is an industry that touches 100% of citizens' lives. Apple is a corporation that sells a few percent of the computers and phones bought each year. What is embarrassing about that?
- noodly 15y ago
  Apple says, "As a result, we’ve created or supported more than 500,000 jobs for U.S. workers: from the engineer who helped invent the iPad to the delivery person who brings it to your door" [1] It tries to include every person, just to make the number of jobs higher (it even includes healthcare workers). Healthcare includes only jobs strictly associated with it - and that's embarrassing for Apple which had to include other industries. "47,000 jobs at Apple" [1] - that's the real number of Apple jobs, and it's comparable with Intel (45375 jobs, 55% of their worldwide employment) [2] [1] http://www.apple.com/about/job-creation/ http://www.apple.com/about/job-creation/ [2] http://bit.ly/AdgusU http://bit.ly/AdgusU [PDF] Intel "2010 Annual Report and Form 10-K"