4 ms·

I am a woman who has been programming professionally, on and off, for about 9 years, and full-time at a corporate job for two and a half of those. I was the fir

I am a woman who has been programming professionally, on and off, for about 9 years, and full-time at a corporate job for two and a half of those. I was the first woman to be hired as a software developer at my workplace in almost 25 years. I hate my job, and next fall, I will enter grad school to go into an allied health profession. My reasons for leaving full-time software development are as follows: 1) The social interaction leaves something to be desired at my job, especially if you are not into gaming or D&D. There are few coworkers with whom I can discuss non-geek topics such as travel or food. This is probably due, at least in part, to having so few women around. The guys constantly revel in their geekitude. It gets old. 2) The work itself is isolating. I love to code, but especially during the long, depressing months of winter, I long for meetings to go to, or phone calls to receive. 3) Similar to the last point: I'd like to have a reason to leave my desk several times a day, for periods longer than it takes to get a cup of coffee or go to the bathroom. The highly sedentary nature of the job starts to make it feel like a prison. In contrast to the last couple of points, my male coworkers act as though they would be happy if they never had to leave their desk chair to go to another meeting. Maybe this is just personality, and not a gender difference. Maybe I don't love programming enough to lose myself in it for hours at a time. I think some of these things, however, especially the social issues, may be indicative of basic female needs to have a connection with others, a feeling of being nurtured (and nurturing others), and good (female) role models. It would be interesting to see a workplace in which the majority of developers are women. I recall reading about a study recently in which they found that men tended to concentrate in the hard sciences (math, physics), where women preferred sciences with a human aspect (psychology, biology). I believe they found that even women who had entered the hard sciences often ended up leaving them for fields with a more human touch.

tapostrophemo 18y ago
That's too bad. (I'm male, btw.) Where I work, on an Agile team, we have lots of social interaction. We try to pair with a different developer every day. Each story card (requrement) we implement involves much back-and-forth conversaction between us (the developers) and the users (or more often, but not always, their "representatives" - the Business Analysts). Aside from that, I don't think D & D has come up once the whole time I've been on that team (3+ years). Between being busy with the work we're doing, and the rest of the world's events to discuss, there's no time for games. Politics. The stock market. Parenthood. (Non-parenthood for the single guys and girls too.) Professional sports. Dumb jokes. Etc.
- alaithea 18y ago
  I also work on a quasi-agile team. We do pair programming, but we often get assigned to the same pair for weeks or months at a time. It's sort of like being in an arranged marriage. I've told management time and again that this doesn't turn out well, to no avail. Granted, pair programming does offer interaction. The hours go more quickly while pairing. However, I often prefer to work alone when I can, so that I can have some semblance of privacy and personal space in our bull-pen work environment. I have to say that the recent financial turmoil and U.S. election have lead the conversation away from D&D, the latest video game, or the plots of Star Trek episodes. It has been a welcome change of pace. We have dumb jokes, too. The puns, ohhh the puns. ;)
blackguardx 18y ago
I am a man and I feel the same way. I recently graduated and have been working as a hardware designer for the past year and a half. I find cube life very depressing and am increasingly losing my motivation. I have better social interaction, though. My work has people who are hard to converse with because of their lack of social skills but the majority of people aren't like that. Even though I hate sitting in my cubicle all day, I really don't like most meetings because the information discussed isn't interesting and my eyes glaze over. People get into pointless arguments and I sit there hoping for the meeting to end. The only meetings that I like are design meetings, but most of our meetings just cover status updates. I yearn for a job that doesn't involve sitting in front of a computer all day. I love hardware design and programming, but 8 hours a day of it is very taxing. I suffer from RSI in my wrists and have yet to find a long lasting remedy. Maybe the best option would be to start my own hardware or software company. Working for someone else just adds to the dreariness. Other than that, I have been thinking about becoming a doctor.
- alaithea 18y ago
  Your point about starting a business is a good one. I initially learned programming while self-employed as a web designer back in the wee days of the web. On my own, I always wore more hats than just "code monkey," and that made a difference. Not to mention that when you're self-employed, you can go take a walk outdoors, etc., anytime you like. I guess a predilection for self-employment is why most of us are here reading Hacker News. At risk of going off-topic: I, too, suffer from RSI. As a programmer and musician, it is a double whammy for me. I have found many short-term solutions, but have recently experienced some astonishing relief from reading The Mindbody Prescription by Dr. Sarno (I believe someone here on HN mentioned it). If you think you would be open to the idea of RSI as a disorder originating in the brain as a result of buried emotional tension, you should check it out.
- aswanson 18y ago
  I would advise you to make some time of move now to discover what you really want to do with your career. I remember having the same sorts of feelings at that point in my career but ignoring them. Ten years later, guess who is still a cube dweller? Do something orthogonal to what you have been NOW.
known 18y ago
To be a good programer we need to insulate our mind from rest of the world. I believe women cannot efford to do this by nature (due to mother's role etc)
dgabriel 18y ago
I am also a woman software engineer, but my workplace is significantly different from yours. I'm the principal software engineer at a university with a commitment to diversity, and my team consists of 7 men and 6 women (3 developers, 1 dba, 2 QE). We're an agile workplace, so every day we have several meetings, including the stand-up, code reviews, and meetings with our partners. I don't think anyone is into gaming, but you might find the baby talk tedious (2 of us are pregnant, myself with twins, and virtually everyone has a family). The elusive "human touch," feels intrinsic to this job. However, it took me a long time to find the ideal workplace, so I fully understand your frustration. For years, I was the one&only technical woman in the different companies I worked for. That can be very difficult, especially in a start-up environment where (depending on the culture), the atmosphere can be as sexually charged as a college dorm. I've had supervisors hit on me & grope me at parties. Another boss told me he was going to replace me with a nice, docile set of Geisha programmers, or sell me into white slavery if the start-up folded. The new sales guy at one place asked me to get him coffee, and when I explained that wasn't my job, he said I was "too hot to be a programmer." I was not flattered. And then there are the message boards where hoards of young men post their opinions about women being intrinsically incapable of hacking. You have to have a really, really thick skin to be a woman in this line of work.
- aswanson 18y ago
  We're an agile workplace, so every day we have several meetings Is that what agile is about, multiple meetings every day? That would drive me nuts. How can you concentrate on problems in that type of environment? I don't mind social interaction but that seems over the top.
  - dgabriel 18y ago
    My team consists of 13 contributors, wich is knd of large for an agile team. In order for the team to function, we all need to be completely invested in high-bandwidth communication, and we need more meetings than a 3-5 man team. For us, this means at least the stand-up every day. There are frequent code and technical design reviews, at least 2-3 times a week. Requirements clarification will typically involve 1-2 meetings a week with the partner, to ensure we're on the right track. Add on the bi-weekly demo and iteration planning, and you're looking at more than one meeting a day. Not all of the developers are required to attend all of the meetings, but because I'm the ranking dev/technical lead, I need to go to most of them. Also, almost half our team is offshore, so I spend plenty of time drafting emails. If communication and human interaction is your bag, this is a pretty good place to be. That said, I tend to freak out once a month or so, and lock myself in a dark room with the code base for a week. Somehow, I still manage to be the single largest contributor to the project....

tapostrophemo 18y ago

That's too bad. (I'm male, btw.) Where I work, on an Agile team, we have lots of social interaction. We try to pair with a different developer every day. Each story card (requrement) we implement involves much back-and-forth conversaction between us (the developers) and the users (or more often, but not always, their "representatives" - the Business Analysts). Aside from that, I don't think D & D has come up once the whole time I've been on that team (3+ years). Between being busy with the work we're doing, and the rest of the world's events to discuss, there's no time for games. Politics. The stock market. Parenthood. (Non-parenthood for the single guys and girls too.) Professional sports. Dumb jokes. Etc.

alaithea 18y ago
I also work on a quasi-agile team. We do pair programming, but we often get assigned to the same pair for weeks or months at a time. It's sort of like being in an arranged marriage. I've told management time and again that this doesn't turn out well, to no avail. Granted, pair programming does offer interaction. The hours go more quickly while pairing. However, I often prefer to work alone when I can, so that I can have some semblance of privacy and personal space in our bull-pen work environment. I have to say that the recent financial turmoil and U.S. election have lead the conversation away from D&D, the latest video game, or the plots of Star Trek episodes. It has been a welcome change of pace. We have dumb jokes, too. The puns, ohhh the puns. ;)

blackguardx 18y ago

I am a man and I feel the same way. I recently graduated and have been working as a hardware designer for the past year and a half. I find cube life very depressing and am increasingly losing my motivation. I have better social interaction, though. My work has people who are hard to converse with because of their lack of social skills but the majority of people aren't like that. Even though I hate sitting in my cubicle all day, I really don't like most meetings because the information discussed isn't interesting and my eyes glaze over. People get into pointless arguments and I sit there hoping for the meeting to end. The only meetings that I like are design meetings, but most of our meetings just cover status updates. I yearn for a job that doesn't involve sitting in front of a computer all day. I love hardware design and programming, but 8 hours a day of it is very taxing. I suffer from RSI in my wrists and have yet to find a long lasting remedy. Maybe the best option would be to start my own hardware or software company. Working for someone else just adds to the dreariness. Other than that, I have been thinking about becoming a doctor.

alaithea 18y ago
Your point about starting a business is a good one. I initially learned programming while self-employed as a web designer back in the wee days of the web. On my own, I always wore more hats than just "code monkey," and that made a difference. Not to mention that when you're self-employed, you can go take a walk outdoors, etc., anytime you like. I guess a predilection for self-employment is why most of us are here reading Hacker News. At risk of going off-topic: I, too, suffer from RSI. As a programmer and musician, it is a double whammy for me. I have found many short-term solutions, but have recently experienced some astonishing relief from reading The Mindbody Prescription by Dr. Sarno (I believe someone here on HN mentioned it). If you think you would be open to the idea of RSI as a disorder originating in the brain as a result of buried emotional tension, you should check it out.
aswanson 18y ago
I would advise you to make some time of move now to discover what you really want to do with your career. I remember having the same sorts of feelings at that point in my career but ignoring them. Ten years later, guess who is still a cube dweller? Do something orthogonal to what you have been NOW.

known 18y ago

To be a good programer we need to insulate our mind from rest of the world. I believe women cannot efford to do this by nature (due to mother's role etc)

dgabriel 18y ago

I am also a woman software engineer, but my workplace is significantly different from yours. I'm the principal software engineer at a university with a commitment to diversity, and my team consists of 7 men and 6 women (3 developers, 1 dba, 2 QE). We're an agile workplace, so every day we have several meetings, including the stand-up, code reviews, and meetings with our partners. I don't think anyone is into gaming, but you might find the baby talk tedious (2 of us are pregnant, myself with twins, and virtually everyone has a family). The elusive "human touch," feels intrinsic to this job. However, it took me a long time to find the ideal workplace, so I fully understand your frustration. For years, I was the one&only technical woman in the different companies I worked for. That can be very difficult, especially in a start-up environment where (depending on the culture), the atmosphere can be as sexually charged as a college dorm. I've had supervisors hit on me & grope me at parties. Another boss told me he was going to replace me with a nice, docile set of Geisha programmers, or sell me into white slavery if the start-up folded. The new sales guy at one place asked me to get him coffee, and when I explained that wasn't my job, he said I was "too hot to be a programmer." I was not flattered. And then there are the message boards where hoards of young men post their opinions about women being intrinsically incapable of hacking. You have to have a really, really thick skin to be a woman in this line of work.

aswanson 18y ago
We're an agile workplace, so every day we have several meetings Is that what agile is about, multiple meetings every day? That would drive me nuts. How can you concentrate on problems in that type of environment? I don't mind social interaction but that seems over the top.
- dgabriel 18y ago
  My team consists of 13 contributors, wich is knd of large for an agile team. In order for the team to function, we all need to be completely invested in high-bandwidth communication, and we need more meetings than a 3-5 man team. For us, this means at least the stand-up every day. There are frequent code and technical design reviews, at least 2-3 times a week. Requirements clarification will typically involve 1-2 meetings a week with the partner, to ensure we're on the right track. Add on the bi-weekly demo and iteration planning, and you're looking at more than one meeting a day. Not all of the developers are required to attend all of the meetings, but because I'm the ranking dev/technical lead, I need to go to most of them. Also, almost half our team is offshore, so I spend plenty of time drafting emails. If communication and human interaction is your bag, this is a pretty good place to be. That said, I tend to freak out once a month or so, and lock myself in a dark room with the code base for a week. Somehow, I still manage to be the single largest contributor to the project....