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> Matrix is used as a decentralised bouncer for tens of thousands of users to access IRC Matrix as a whole isn't banned, only the bridge operated by Element. I

> Matrix is used as a decentralised bouncer for tens of thousands of users to access IRC Matrix as a whole isn't banned, only the bridge operated by Element. If anything, this could encourage more people to run their own bridges (eg. Heisenbridge). > while the bridge has certainly had problems over the years (e.g. occasional delays & a recent spate of dropped messages), As well as flood (multiline messages and edits), spam, harassment[1], leaking secret channels[2], leaking past message metadata and channel membership. [1]: https://twitter.com/AsahiLinux/status/1581103659013722112 https://twitter.com/AsahiLinux/status/1581103659013722112 [2]: https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-appservice-irc/releases/tag/0.38.0 https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-appservice-irc/releases... > it's also improved loads too The very room used to discuss the Matrix bridge (#irc:matrix.org) has been dropping all IRC messages for at least three days, and the one to talk to Libera's staff (#libera-matrix:libera.chat) was only fixed today [EDIT: actually it's still dropping some people's messages]. The room used to discuss the Matrix spec (#spec:matrix.org) has been dropping them for over a year. After two years of message drops, there is no way for users to know their messages are being dropped without using developer tools, causing miscommunication issues to many Free Software projects. There have been, as far as I know, no work on addressing UX issues on the IRC side (primarily multiline messages, edits, and replies) in the last couple of years; except my work on MSC3968 and MSC3969 which is still awaiting initial review from Element four months after I submitted it.

brightlancer 3y ago
> As well as flood (multiline messages and edits), spam, harassment[1], leaking secret channels[2], leaking past message metadata and channel membership. > [1]: https://twitter.com/AsahiLinux/status/1581103659013722112 https://twitter.com/AsahiLinux/status/1581103659013722112 What abuse? That link says "Matrix does not provide the moderation tools we need to keep our community safe", but doesn't say how their safety(?) was compromised. I also find it odd since Mozilla switched from IRC to Matrix specifically because they wanted to censor people, I mean "keep our community safe" though "moderation tools". https://discourse.mozilla.org/t/synchronous-messaging-at-mozilla-the-decision/50620 https://discourse.mozilla.org/t/synchronous-messaging-at-moz...
- progval 3y ago
  > What abuse? Not sure, but here is what I can find in public logs: https://oftc.irclog.whitequark.org/asahi/2022-10-12#31512149 https://oftc.irclog.whitequark.org/asahi/2022-10-12#31512149 https://oftc.irclog.whitequark.org/asahi/2022-10-13#31516958 https://oftc.irclog.whitequark.org/asahi/2022-10-13#31516958 https://oftc.irclog.whitequark.org/asahi/2022-10-14#31520624 https://oftc.irclog.whitequark.org/asahi/2022-10-14#31520624 https://oftc.irclog.whitequark.org/asahi/2022-10-14#31522316 https://oftc.irclog.whitequark.org/asahi/2022-10-14#31522316 > I also find it odd since Mozilla switched from IRC to Matrix specifically because they wanted to censor people, I mean "keep our community safe" though "moderation tools". Mozilla had neglected their IRC network for years, so they were lacking the expertise. And they didn't try to reach out to other networks like Freenode (Libera Chat's predecessor) or OFTC to try to ask them for advice.
MTRNord 3y ago
> Matrix as a whole isn't banned, only the bridge operated by Element. If anything, this could encourage more people to run their own bridges (eg. Heisenbridge). That won't help 80% of the users that are not techy people. So yes imho while not intended as one, it will backfire as a full ban of matrix. > except my work on MSC3968 and MSC3969 which is still awaiting initial review from Element four months after I submitted it. Honestly, as a Matrix user, I hope these don't land any time soon as they will strongly decrease usability for matrix users. (And yes, I am going as far as saying that I want a native feeling chat on matrix side. Not an IRC emulation. If I wanted an IRC emulation, I would use an IRC client. That's EXACTLY the one thing I DO NOT want as a matrix user.)
- progval 3y ago
  > they will strongly decrease usability for matrix users There is an impedance mismatch between IRC and Matrix, and these try to find a middle-ground, by helping non-technical Matrix users follow social norms in a room they joined. As your own client dev, you are free not to implement these specs in your client to ignore these norms.
  - MTRNord 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - progval 3y ago
      I'm not trying to push these on all of Matrix, that would be ridiculous. My implementations only enable them in 1-on-1 chats with IRC users, and (hopefully) on portal rooms in the future.

brightlancer 3y ago

> As well as flood (multiline messages and edits), spam, harassment[1], leaking secret channels[2], leaking past message metadata and channel membership. > [1]: https://twitter.com/AsahiLinux/status/1581103659013722112 https://twitter.com/AsahiLinux/status/1581103659013722112 What abuse? That link says "Matrix does not provide the moderation tools we need to keep our community safe", but doesn't say how their safety(?) was compromised. I also find it odd since Mozilla switched from IRC to Matrix specifically because they wanted to censor people, I mean "keep our community safe" though "moderation tools". https://discourse.mozilla.org/t/synchronous-messaging-at-mozilla-the-decision/50620 https://discourse.mozilla.org/t/synchronous-messaging-at-moz...

progval 3y ago
> What abuse? Not sure, but here is what I can find in public logs: https://oftc.irclog.whitequark.org/asahi/2022-10-12#31512149 https://oftc.irclog.whitequark.org/asahi/2022-10-12#31512149 https://oftc.irclog.whitequark.org/asahi/2022-10-13#31516958 https://oftc.irclog.whitequark.org/asahi/2022-10-13#31516958 https://oftc.irclog.whitequark.org/asahi/2022-10-14#31520624 https://oftc.irclog.whitequark.org/asahi/2022-10-14#31520624 https://oftc.irclog.whitequark.org/asahi/2022-10-14#31522316 https://oftc.irclog.whitequark.org/asahi/2022-10-14#31522316 > I also find it odd since Mozilla switched from IRC to Matrix specifically because they wanted to censor people, I mean "keep our community safe" though "moderation tools". Mozilla had neglected their IRC network for years, so they were lacking the expertise. And they didn't try to reach out to other networks like Freenode (Libera Chat's predecessor) or OFTC to try to ask them for advice.

MTRNord 3y ago

> Matrix as a whole isn't banned, only the bridge operated by Element. If anything, this could encourage more people to run their own bridges (eg. Heisenbridge). That won't help 80% of the users that are not techy people. So yes imho while not intended as one, it will backfire as a full ban of matrix. > except my work on MSC3968 and MSC3969 which is still awaiting initial review from Element four months after I submitted it. Honestly, as a Matrix user, I hope these don't land any time soon as they will strongly decrease usability for matrix users. (And yes, I am going as far as saying that I want a native feeling chat on matrix side. Not an IRC emulation. If I wanted an IRC emulation, I would use an IRC client. That's EXACTLY the one thing I DO NOT want as a matrix user.)

progval 3y ago
> they will strongly decrease usability for matrix users There is an impedance mismatch between IRC and Matrix, and these try to find a middle-ground, by helping non-technical Matrix users follow social norms in a room they joined. As your own client dev, you are free not to implement these specs in your client to ignore these norms.
- MTRNord 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - progval 3y ago
    I'm not trying to push these on all of Matrix, that would be ridiculous. My implementations only enable them in 1-on-1 chats with IRC users, and (hopefully) on portal rooms in the future.