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Being ex-military and not a sociopath -- he lost me when he said that the "vast majority of us are straight up sociopaths" We constantly made decisions that in

Being ex-military and not a sociopath -- he lost me when he said that the "vast majority of us are straight up sociopaths" We constantly made decisions that increased the risk to ourselves while trying to minimize the risk to civilians. That is not a mindset of a sociopath.

gruseom 15y ago
In your experience, what determines the degree to which a unit will uphold such standards vs. degenerating into what the OP calls "sociopaths"? Is it a matter of training? leadership? character?
- burgerbrain 15y ago
  Hmm. As I read the article, it seemed like the author was alternating between suggesting that experience was what turned people that way ("he was the FNG [ed: fucking new guy] that got blown up because he was incompetent, who left the fight before it turned him into one of us."), and suggesting that there is something else at play ("only roughly 20% of combat troops ever get PTSD – when if you think about it, it should affect everyone that ever sees combat."). I read it as him carefully suggesting that the career self-selects for sociopathic tendencies.
  - gruseom 15y ago
    Yeah, but I'm asking about roboneal's personal experience, not the article. Edit: what bothers me about the article is that it seems unlikely that a true sociopath would describe himself in these terms.
    - dinkumthinkum 15y ago
      Well, the author says he is not an academic so I think we can freely assume he may not necessarily mean sociopath as how it may or may not be understood by psychologists or the DSM-IV. I think he refers more to apathy.
  - fdschoeneman 15y ago
    I'm not sure the author is real.
    - burgerbrain 15y ago
      So?
- run4yourlives 15y ago
  Leadership. (That's my experience, which isn't the op's) The problem is that leadership isn't a consistent action. Very capable and honest leaders can be sullied by PTSD (one symptom of which is lack of empathy) given enough combat experience. However the degree this affects a unit, and the starting point, is primarily due to the leader. Especially in combat units.
cobrausn 15y ago
From what I could tell from my time in the service, your view of your situation is highly dependent upon who you are serving with. I'm willing to bet it is highly likely that the group this supposed sociopath served with had no such compulsions. Without proper oversight, I could easily see a group mindset of this kind developing. As such, I'm willing to bet he thinks all soldiers are like him, when the reality is that he is likely the outlier.
- heretohelp 15y ago
  com·punc·tion/kəmˈpəNG(k)SHən/ Noun: A feeling of guilt or moral scruple that follows the doing of something bad: "spend the money without compunction". A pricking of the conscience.
- PakG1 15y ago
  There's data about a lot of gang members entering the service these days and receiving a lot of military training, but then taking that training back to the gang (as well as smuggling some weapons). If it's reliable data, I wonder if the number of sociopaths in the military could be growing, if it's also possible that gang members have a higher probability of being sociopaths. A lot of conditionals there, I know.
  - fdschoeneman 15y ago
    Sorry, what data are you talking about? I haven't seen it. I'm sure there's a journalist who wrote something like a) a the number of gang members who wouldn't normally join the military are b) allowed into the military because of the dire need for same and then c) all kinds of hijinks ensue. But I don't think it happens very often, and I really doubt the transfer of mad military skilz is going back into the gangs.
    - PakG1 15y ago
      http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/2011-national-gang-threat-assessment http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/2011-national...
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
- cobrausn 15y ago
  It’s because the vast majority of us are straight up sociopaths. I don't think this can be taken out of context.
mikeryan 15y ago
This is also a guy who left the gov't military to become a "private military contractor". He's a lifer and sometimes you have to try to bring everyone to your level by casting them as "sociopaths" in order to sleep at night. We do it for real, time and time again, with no other motivation but pay, leave, and the chance to brutalise whomever we deem the “enemy”. scary.
- fleitz 15y ago
  Yeah, the guys who aren't PMCs are doing the same thing except for the "dulce et decorum est" reasons instead of the cash. People don't sign up for the military because they really think it's sweet and fitting to die for one's country, they sign up for the military because it's how they get into college or out of their shitty 2000 person town. I dated a girl who served, one day when I was ranting about recruiters working high schools and the unfairness of being recruited after exposure to 12 years government hype, and she said to me "You know, the army is what got me out of <podunk town>"
  - pstuart 15y ago
    Yep, but it's a shame that was the only option available.
    - javert 15y ago
      There is another option: the public university system. In most states, it's very cheap (re: you can work to pay for it), especially given financial aid. Now, many high schoolers do not consider this to be an option for them (i.e., not the "learning" type). Figuring out why that happens to so many people is a harder question.
  - gnosis 15y ago
    I wonder how many Iraqis or Afghanis died as a result of that noble choice to become a gun for hire.
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
dinkumthinkum 15y ago
It's also possible that his experiences jaded him as well as what another commenter said about group dynamics. Having that sort of attitude may just be how he copes with it. There are all kinds of people in the military, many like you and many that are not.

gruseom 15y ago

In your experience, what determines the degree to which a unit will uphold such standards vs. degenerating into what the OP calls "sociopaths"? Is it a matter of training? leadership? character?

burgerbrain 15y ago
Hmm. As I read the article, it seemed like the author was alternating between suggesting that experience was what turned people that way ("he was the FNG [ed: fucking new guy] that got blown up because he was incompetent, who left the fight before it turned him into one of us."), and suggesting that there is something else at play ("only roughly 20% of combat troops ever get PTSD – when if you think about it, it should affect everyone that ever sees combat."). I read it as him carefully suggesting that the career self-selects for sociopathic tendencies.
- gruseom 15y ago
  Yeah, but I'm asking about roboneal's personal experience, not the article. Edit: what bothers me about the article is that it seems unlikely that a true sociopath would describe himself in these terms.
  - dinkumthinkum 15y ago
    Well, the author says he is not an academic so I think we can freely assume he may not necessarily mean sociopath as how it may or may not be understood by psychologists or the DSM-IV. I think he refers more to apathy.
- fdschoeneman 15y ago
  I'm not sure the author is real.
  - burgerbrain 15y ago
    So?
run4yourlives 15y ago
Leadership. (That's my experience, which isn't the op's) The problem is that leadership isn't a consistent action. Very capable and honest leaders can be sullied by PTSD (one symptom of which is lack of empathy) given enough combat experience. However the degree this affects a unit, and the starting point, is primarily due to the leader. Especially in combat units.

cobrausn 15y ago

From what I could tell from my time in the service, your view of your situation is highly dependent upon who you are serving with. I'm willing to bet it is highly likely that the group this supposed sociopath served with had no such compulsions. Without proper oversight, I could easily see a group mindset of this kind developing. As such, I'm willing to bet he thinks all soldiers are like him, when the reality is that he is likely the outlier.

heretohelp 15y ago
com·punc·tion/kəmˈpəNG(k)SHən/ Noun: A feeling of guilt or moral scruple that follows the doing of something bad: "spend the money without compunction". A pricking of the conscience.
PakG1 15y ago
There's data about a lot of gang members entering the service these days and receiving a lot of military training, but then taking that training back to the gang (as well as smuggling some weapons). If it's reliable data, I wonder if the number of sociopaths in the military could be growing, if it's also possible that gang members have a higher probability of being sociopaths. A lot of conditionals there, I know.
- fdschoeneman 15y ago
  Sorry, what data are you talking about? I haven't seen it. I'm sure there's a journalist who wrote something like a) a the number of gang members who wouldn't normally join the military are b) allowed into the military because of the dire need for same and then c) all kinds of hijinks ensue. But I don't think it happens very often, and I really doubt the transfer of mad military skilz is going back into the gangs.
  - PakG1 15y ago
    http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/2011-national-gang-threat-assessment http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/2011-national...

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

cobrausn 15y ago
It’s because the vast majority of us are straight up sociopaths. I don't think this can be taken out of context.

mikeryan 15y ago

This is also a guy who left the gov't military to become a "private military contractor". He's a lifer and sometimes you have to try to bring everyone to your level by casting them as "sociopaths" in order to sleep at night. We do it for real, time and time again, with no other motivation but pay, leave, and the chance to brutalise whomever we deem the “enemy”. scary.

fleitz 15y ago
Yeah, the guys who aren't PMCs are doing the same thing except for the "dulce et decorum est" reasons instead of the cash. People don't sign up for the military because they really think it's sweet and fitting to die for one's country, they sign up for the military because it's how they get into college or out of their shitty 2000 person town. I dated a girl who served, one day when I was ranting about recruiters working high schools and the unfairness of being recruited after exposure to 12 years government hype, and she said to me "You know, the army is what got me out of <podunk town>"
- pstuart 15y ago
  Yep, but it's a shame that was the only option available.
  - javert 15y ago
    There is another option: the public university system. In most states, it's very cheap (re: you can work to pay for it), especially given financial aid. Now, many high schoolers do not consider this to be an option for them (i.e., not the "learning" type). Figuring out why that happens to so many people is a harder question.
- gnosis 15y ago
  I wonder how many Iraqis or Afghanis died as a result of that noble choice to become a gun for hire.

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

dinkumthinkum 15y ago

It's also possible that his experiences jaded him as well as what another commenter said about group dynamics. Having that sort of attitude may just be how he copes with it. There are all kinds of people in the military, many like you and many that are not.