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As a user, this is miserable. Matrix is used as a decentralised bouncer for tens of thousands of users to access IRC (including me) and while the bridge has cer

As a user, this is miserable. Matrix is used as a decentralised bouncer for tens of thousands of users to access IRC (including me) and while the bridge has certainly had problems over the years (e.g. occasional delays & a recent spate of dropped messages), it's also improved loads too - e.g. with support for restarting the bridge without reconnecting all the IRC users (https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-appservice-irc/issues/1669 https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-appservice-irc/issues/1...) and all the other stuff in https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-appservice-irc/blob/develop/CHANGELOG.md https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-appservice-irc/blob/dev.... By now requiring users to go and contact chanops to ask them to explicitly plumb IRC channels to Matrix, it's just going to waste time for chanops, precipitate weird cross-plumbing failures, or fail outright (given plumbing channels with more than 100 users has to be done manually to prevent abuse). It's very unfortunate that it's come to this, and I can only hope that the whole "opt in with a chanmode" thing happens, if portalling is off the table. In fact, wouldn't it have been better to just ban the bridge by default, and let chanops unban it if they want people to be able to access via Matrix, rather than encourage people into the weird world of plumbing? EDIT: clarifying that i'm not neutral on this, given i'm project lead for Matrix, and also responsible for running the Libera bridge at Element.

jeltz 3y ago
I totally agree with everything you said (as a normal user of Matrix and this bridge) but shouldn't you clarify that you work for Element? You are a user but also more than.
- Arathorn 3y ago
  have clarified. i was posting from a user point of view, though (given i love lurking and hanging out in loads of IRC channels via the bridge today, and i'm gutted to lose that. it feels like the ultimate splintering of communities.)
tredre3 3y ago
I'm one of those who is affected by the decision, and I also hope the chan mode ends up being the chosen solution and implemented before times runs out. There's no need for hyperbole though. Libera overall only has a few tens of thousands of users, there's no way the vast majority are accessing it via Matrix like you say/imply. I'd wager we're less than 1000 impacted on libera.
- jeltz 3y ago
  Are there really that few of us? I feel Arathorn should have the numbers if anyone.
- Arathorn 3y ago
  I'm not being hyperbolic, i'm looking at the grafana stats on the matrix<->libera bridge, and the total connected users from Matrix fluctuates between around 10,000 and 12,000 users (bearing in mind that connections from Matrix get kicked if the user from Matrix hasn't been seen for >30 days). https://netsplit.de/networks/statistics.php?net=Libera.Chat https://netsplit.de/networks/statistics.php?net=Libera.Chat implies there's around 42K users connected to libera overall, so we're talking about 23% of the total network participants here.
  - tredre3 3y ago
    Thank you I stand corrected, 12k is 10x what I expected. Though I feel like "tens of thousands" should means 20k or more, so hyperbole is still at play.. Knowing that at least 1/4 of Libera users are from a fairly unstable bridge is really depressing. IRC truly is dying...
    - Arathorn 3y ago
      Before I checked the figure, I thought it was around 22,000 (from memory, the I:line is set up for 25,000 connections). However, as time has gone one we've been more aggressive about culling idle connections on the Matrix side (plus there seems to be less activity to bridge to on the IRC side), hence it being around 11K these days. In terms of the bridge stability: there have obviously been stability problems over the last few months, but overall it's certainly been better than nothing. Agreed that the situation overall is really depressing.
progval 3y ago
> Matrix is used as a decentralised bouncer for tens of thousands of users to access IRC Matrix as a whole isn't banned, only the bridge operated by Element. If anything, this could encourage more people to run their own bridges (eg. Heisenbridge). > while the bridge has certainly had problems over the years (e.g. occasional delays & a recent spate of dropped messages), As well as flood (multiline messages and edits), spam, harassment[1], leaking secret channels[2], leaking past message metadata and channel membership. [1]: https://twitter.com/AsahiLinux/status/1581103659013722112 https://twitter.com/AsahiLinux/status/1581103659013722112 [2]: https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-appservice-irc/releases/tag/0.38.0 https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-appservice-irc/releases... > it's also improved loads too The very room used to discuss the Matrix bridge (#irc:matrix.org) has been dropping all IRC messages for at least three days, and the one to talk to Libera's staff (#libera-matrix:libera.chat) was only fixed today [EDIT: actually it's still dropping some people's messages]. The room used to discuss the Matrix spec (#spec:matrix.org) has been dropping them for over a year. After two years of message drops, there is no way for users to know their messages are being dropped without using developer tools, causing miscommunication issues to many Free Software projects. There have been, as far as I know, no work on addressing UX issues on the IRC side (primarily multiline messages, edits, and replies) in the last couple of years; except my work on MSC3968 and MSC3969 which is still awaiting initial review from Element four months after I submitted it.
- brightlancer 3y ago
  > As well as flood (multiline messages and edits), spam, harassment[1], leaking secret channels[2], leaking past message metadata and channel membership. > [1]: https://twitter.com/AsahiLinux/status/1581103659013722112 https://twitter.com/AsahiLinux/status/1581103659013722112 What abuse? That link says "Matrix does not provide the moderation tools we need to keep our community safe", but doesn't say how their safety(?) was compromised. I also find it odd since Mozilla switched from IRC to Matrix specifically because they wanted to censor people, I mean "keep our community safe" though "moderation tools". https://discourse.mozilla.org/t/synchronous-messaging-at-mozilla-the-decision/50620 https://discourse.mozilla.org/t/synchronous-messaging-at-moz...
  - 3y ago
tomaw 3y ago
Until you were called out in comments you were fine to be "just a user". I'm really disappointed in that.
- Arathorn 3y ago
  hint: the giveaway is in my user profile, as well as most comments i post. sorry for any confusion or disappointment…
iforgotpassword 3y ago
Good riddance. The random message drops problem has been going on for well over a month now, with a really long issue on GitHub. Almost zero messages from developers, as far as I can tell they neither have a clue what the problem is, nor are they working on a solution. This is absolutely pathetic. If anything this just cemented my aversion towards the whole matrix ecosystem.
- tentacleuno 3y ago
  As a long-time user, they have a shockingly glacial development pace. If I remember correctly, this has been in development since 2014 (that's 8 years) and the official client is still missing features(!) That's not to mention the issues others are having with it, such as the IRC logs in another part of this thread. I've also heard a lot of Synapse horror stories.
  - Valodim 3y ago
    > this has been in development since 2014 (that's 8 years) and the official client is still missing features(!) ...is this sarcasm? I honestly can't tell
    - tentacleuno 3y ago
      No! It's always fascinated me how long Matrix has been in development. I got 2014 from their Wikipedia page[0]. [0]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrix_(protocol) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrix_(protocol)
Arathorn 3y ago
For the sake of completeness, https://matrix.org/blog/2023/07/deportalling-libera-chat/ https://matrix.org/blog/2023/07/deportalling-libera-chat/ is our response from the Matrix side.
return_to_monke 3y ago
Does this mean that DMs will stop working, too?

jeltz 3y ago

I totally agree with everything you said (as a normal user of Matrix and this bridge) but shouldn't you clarify that you work for Element? You are a user but also more than.

Arathorn 3y ago
have clarified. i was posting from a user point of view, though (given i love lurking and hanging out in loads of IRC channels via the bridge today, and i'm gutted to lose that. it feels like the ultimate splintering of communities.)

tredre3 3y ago

I'm one of those who is affected by the decision, and I also hope the chan mode ends up being the chosen solution and implemented before times runs out. There's no need for hyperbole though. Libera overall only has a few tens of thousands of users, there's no way the vast majority are accessing it via Matrix like you say/imply. I'd wager we're less than 1000 impacted on libera.

jeltz 3y ago
Are there really that few of us? I feel Arathorn should have the numbers if anyone.
Arathorn 3y ago
I'm not being hyperbolic, i'm looking at the grafana stats on the matrix<->libera bridge, and the total connected users from Matrix fluctuates between around 10,000 and 12,000 users (bearing in mind that connections from Matrix get kicked if the user from Matrix hasn't been seen for >30 days). https://netsplit.de/networks/statistics.php?net=Libera.Chat https://netsplit.de/networks/statistics.php?net=Libera.Chat implies there's around 42K users connected to libera overall, so we're talking about 23% of the total network participants here.
- tredre3 3y ago
  Thank you I stand corrected, 12k is 10x what I expected. Though I feel like "tens of thousands" should means 20k or more, so hyperbole is still at play.. Knowing that at least 1/4 of Libera users are from a fairly unstable bridge is really depressing. IRC truly is dying...
  - Arathorn 3y ago
    Before I checked the figure, I thought it was around 22,000 (from memory, the I:line is set up for 25,000 connections). However, as time has gone one we've been more aggressive about culling idle connections on the Matrix side (plus there seems to be less activity to bridge to on the IRC side), hence it being around 11K these days. In terms of the bridge stability: there have obviously been stability problems over the last few months, but overall it's certainly been better than nothing. Agreed that the situation overall is really depressing.

progval 3y ago

> Matrix is used as a decentralised bouncer for tens of thousands of users to access IRC Matrix as a whole isn't banned, only the bridge operated by Element. If anything, this could encourage more people to run their own bridges (eg. Heisenbridge). > while the bridge has certainly had problems over the years (e.g. occasional delays & a recent spate of dropped messages), As well as flood (multiline messages and edits), spam, harassment[1], leaking secret channels[2], leaking past message metadata and channel membership. [1]: https://twitter.com/AsahiLinux/status/1581103659013722112 https://twitter.com/AsahiLinux/status/1581103659013722112 [2]: https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-appservice-irc/releases/tag/0.38.0 https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-appservice-irc/releases... > it's also improved loads too The very room used to discuss the Matrix bridge (#irc:matrix.org) has been dropping all IRC messages for at least three days, and the one to talk to Libera's staff (#libera-matrix:libera.chat) was only fixed today [EDIT: actually it's still dropping some people's messages]. The room used to discuss the Matrix spec (#spec:matrix.org) has been dropping them for over a year. After two years of message drops, there is no way for users to know their messages are being dropped without using developer tools, causing miscommunication issues to many Free Software projects. There have been, as far as I know, no work on addressing UX issues on the IRC side (primarily multiline messages, edits, and replies) in the last couple of years; except my work on MSC3968 and MSC3969 which is still awaiting initial review from Element four months after I submitted it.

brightlancer 3y ago
> As well as flood (multiline messages and edits), spam, harassment[1], leaking secret channels[2], leaking past message metadata and channel membership. > [1]: https://twitter.com/AsahiLinux/status/1581103659013722112 https://twitter.com/AsahiLinux/status/1581103659013722112 What abuse? That link says "Matrix does not provide the moderation tools we need to keep our community safe", but doesn't say how their safety(?) was compromised. I also find it odd since Mozilla switched from IRC to Matrix specifically because they wanted to censor people, I mean "keep our community safe" though "moderation tools". https://discourse.mozilla.org/t/synchronous-messaging-at-mozilla-the-decision/50620 https://discourse.mozilla.org/t/synchronous-messaging-at-moz...
- 3y ago

tomaw 3y ago

Until you were called out in comments you were fine to be "just a user". I'm really disappointed in that.

Arathorn 3y ago
hint: the giveaway is in my user profile, as well as most comments i post. sorry for any confusion or disappointment…

iforgotpassword 3y ago

Good riddance. The random message drops problem has been going on for well over a month now, with a really long issue on GitHub. Almost zero messages from developers, as far as I can tell they neither have a clue what the problem is, nor are they working on a solution. This is absolutely pathetic. If anything this just cemented my aversion towards the whole matrix ecosystem.

tentacleuno 3y ago
As a long-time user, they have a shockingly glacial development pace. If I remember correctly, this has been in development since 2014 (that's 8 years) and the official client is still missing features(!) That's not to mention the issues others are having with it, such as the IRC logs in another part of this thread. I've also heard a lot of Synapse horror stories.
- Valodim 3y ago
  > this has been in development since 2014 (that's 8 years) and the official client is still missing features(!) ...is this sarcasm? I honestly can't tell
  - tentacleuno 3y ago
    No! It's always fascinated me how long Matrix has been in development. I got 2014 from their Wikipedia page[0]. [0]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrix_(protocol) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrix_(protocol)

Arathorn 3y ago

For the sake of completeness, https://matrix.org/blog/2023/07/deportalling-libera-chat/ https://matrix.org/blog/2023/07/deportalling-libera-chat/ is our response from the Matrix side.

return_to_monke 3y ago

Does this mean that DMs will stop working, too?