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As a former Marine infantryman, and a former Marine PR idiot, I think his numbers are off but a lot of the concepts are right, with a caveat. It's not sociopath

As a former Marine infantryman, and a former Marine PR idiot, I think his numbers are off but a lot of the concepts are right, with a caveat. It's not sociopathy of the organic sort. It's the kind of detachment from prolonged exposure to extreme, unmitigated stress. So don't take this article as justification to feel like there's something mentally wrong with people who join a combat arms unit.

phaus 15y ago
I understand very well that you yourself don't think that one has to be a sociopath to become an infantryman, but that is exactly what the author is claiming in this article. That's why so many former military guys (such as myself) think that this article is idiotic. There are definitely a disproportionate amount of people who return from war with psychological issues, but sociopaths are pretty rare. Many people who have been in combat have a difficult time relating to the rest of the world, but it doesn't make them psychopaths. There are probably a few people who choose to become military contractors because they are sick individuals that enjoy killing their fellow man, but I suspect that the majority of the people who go that route do so because they leave the military without any marketable skills and find it hard to pass up the six-figure incomes that are offered to military contractors in Afghanistan and Iraq. Just to clarify a bit, I don't disagree with his assessment of the video game / movie industry, just his statements about soldiers being sadistic killing machines without a sense of morality.
- anigbrowl 15y ago
  There are probably a few people who choose to become military contractors because they are sick individuals that enjoy killing their fellow man 'Sociopath' has become unfortunately loaded word. I certainly don't think of a serial killer or sadist when I see that term, but rather someone who is emotionally and socially detached from their surroundings, out of ongoing necessity as much as anything else. It's callous indifference as opposed to cruelty, just as people who work on industrial farms and in slaughterhouses are acclimatized to their rather unpleasant jobs, as opposed to hating animals or glorifying in their suffering. The sociopathy described here is the mindset of 'nothing personal/just business' taken to its logical conclusion: one might say that the US has a comparative economic advantage in the projection of military power, this military contractor is essentially one of many service workers to whom we (as society) have outsourced some of our morally unpleasant tasks.
  - phaus 15y ago
    I agree. Most sociopaths will never commit a violent act and often lead somewhat normal lives. I was just trying to use the term in the same context the author did. There are some sociopaths that are serial killers and sadists, but most sociopaths are not. There have been rare cases where complete lunatics have joined the military during a time of war for the sole purpose of killing people. I can't remember the name but I think there was at least one soldier from Vietnam who returned to the United States and became a serial killer.
majelix 15y ago
W saddens me; he's clearly dealing with guilt by just labeling himself and his buddies as sociopaths.
Someone 15y ago
I have heard (BBC documentary, a couple of years ago) that about 10% of soldiers are evil/psych/sociopaths and become heroes because of it (or die trying) and about 10% behave similarly because they are so unselfish that they are willing to sacrifice their lives. That documentary also stated that modern military training tries to get rid of the former, and to shape more people to behave similar to the latter 10%, and is fairly successful at it (as measured by the fraction of soldiers willing to actually aim at the enemy) So yes, there probably is something different about you. Whether to call that wrong, I don't know. I googled for some reference on this. I havent read it, but I think http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0316330116/warcatslair http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0316330116/warcatslai... is relevant reading on this subject.
run4yourlives 15y ago
So in other words: PTSD. His numbers are off because his "80%" of sociopaths are more like 2% according to real studies. The rest more than likely are dealing with managing their own PTSD symptoms.
- vacri 15y ago
  The numbers aren't necessarily off - he does couch the numbers to begin with, but he also takes pains to specify he's talking about frontline combat units, not the service in general. I don't have the numbers to hand, but the US military has a ton of support staff (ie non-frontline) - it's possible that these numbers are more similar than they appear.
- wycx 15y ago
  Grossman's book is at least 10 years old. Selection processes may have been optimised over the intervening time to increase the 2-5%. After all, sociopaths can stay in combat zones much longer and will not suffer PTSD.
  - run4yourlives 15y ago
    I await your citation. Grossman's work is pretty much the most complete examination of the topic ever conducted. But like I said, I'd be happy to look at newer research.
bdunbar 15y ago
Former 0311. After I EASd I realized that a _lot_ of perfectly normal behavior in the service is downright _weird_ in the civilian world. It was perfectly normal to make my rack (bed), tuck those hospital corners in, get the folds just so ... then sleep on top of the made bed, wrapped in a poncho liner or a comforter from the PX. Because you save time and hassle in the morning. Toss the blanket in the wall-locker, tighten up the green wool blanket and you're good to go. A perfectly normal adaptation to circumstances. As with sleeping on top of the covers, so goes a lot of behavior that civilians would (do) label sociopathic: laughing at grisly crap. Gallows humor. A cynical narrow view of the world. And so on. You'd be mentally defective to NOT adapt to those circumstances. Me .. I think about some of the stuff I thought was funny, some of the things I did when I was 20, and I'm appalled. I've got my funny sea stories - other things I don't talk about. Or think about, much.
- mattdeboard 15y ago
  Yeah especially a lot of what would be considered racist humor in the real world is... much more acceptable. :P
- gnosis 15y ago
  "After I EASd I realized that a _lot_ of perfectly normal behavior in the service is downright _weird_ in the civilian world. ... I think about some of the stuff I thought was funny, some of the things I did when I was 20, and I'm appalled." This is part of the brilliance of the military: they mostly use young people who are still maturing and often don't know any better and brainwash them in to doing their bidding. Older, more experienced people are not so easily used. I have a feeling if humans were physically feeble and infirm for their first 25 or 30 years and became fit and healthy afterwards, we'd have a lot less war.
  - bdunbar 15y ago
    Older, more experienced people are not so easily used. Meh. You can manipulate anyone - it just takes different triggers to manipulate an older more cynical person.

phaus 15y ago

I understand very well that you yourself don't think that one has to be a sociopath to become an infantryman, but that is exactly what the author is claiming in this article. That's why so many former military guys (such as myself) think that this article is idiotic. There are definitely a disproportionate amount of people who return from war with psychological issues, but sociopaths are pretty rare. Many people who have been in combat have a difficult time relating to the rest of the world, but it doesn't make them psychopaths. There are probably a few people who choose to become military contractors because they are sick individuals that enjoy killing their fellow man, but I suspect that the majority of the people who go that route do so because they leave the military without any marketable skills and find it hard to pass up the six-figure incomes that are offered to military contractors in Afghanistan and Iraq. Just to clarify a bit, I don't disagree with his assessment of the video game / movie industry, just his statements about soldiers being sadistic killing machines without a sense of morality.

anigbrowl 15y ago
There are probably a few people who choose to become military contractors because they are sick individuals that enjoy killing their fellow man 'Sociopath' has become unfortunately loaded word. I certainly don't think of a serial killer or sadist when I see that term, but rather someone who is emotionally and socially detached from their surroundings, out of ongoing necessity as much as anything else. It's callous indifference as opposed to cruelty, just as people who work on industrial farms and in slaughterhouses are acclimatized to their rather unpleasant jobs, as opposed to hating animals or glorifying in their suffering. The sociopathy described here is the mindset of 'nothing personal/just business' taken to its logical conclusion: one might say that the US has a comparative economic advantage in the projection of military power, this military contractor is essentially one of many service workers to whom we (as society) have outsourced some of our morally unpleasant tasks.
- phaus 15y ago
  I agree. Most sociopaths will never commit a violent act and often lead somewhat normal lives. I was just trying to use the term in the same context the author did. There are some sociopaths that are serial killers and sadists, but most sociopaths are not. There have been rare cases where complete lunatics have joined the military during a time of war for the sole purpose of killing people. I can't remember the name but I think there was at least one soldier from Vietnam who returned to the United States and became a serial killer.

majelix 15y ago

W saddens me; he's clearly dealing with guilt by just labeling himself and his buddies as sociopaths.

Someone 15y ago

I have heard (BBC documentary, a couple of years ago) that about 10% of soldiers are evil/psych/sociopaths and become heroes because of it (or die trying) and about 10% behave similarly because they are so unselfish that they are willing to sacrifice their lives. That documentary also stated that modern military training tries to get rid of the former, and to shape more people to behave similar to the latter 10%, and is fairly successful at it (as measured by the fraction of soldiers willing to actually aim at the enemy) So yes, there probably is something different about you. Whether to call that wrong, I don't know. I googled for some reference on this. I havent read it, but I think http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0316330116/warcatslair http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0316330116/warcatslai... is relevant reading on this subject.

run4yourlives 15y ago

So in other words: PTSD. His numbers are off because his "80%" of sociopaths are more like 2% according to real studies. The rest more than likely are dealing with managing their own PTSD symptoms.

vacri 15y ago
The numbers aren't necessarily off - he does couch the numbers to begin with, but he also takes pains to specify he's talking about frontline combat units, not the service in general. I don't have the numbers to hand, but the US military has a ton of support staff (ie non-frontline) - it's possible that these numbers are more similar than they appear.
wycx 15y ago
Grossman's book is at least 10 years old. Selection processes may have been optimised over the intervening time to increase the 2-5%. After all, sociopaths can stay in combat zones much longer and will not suffer PTSD.
- run4yourlives 15y ago
  I await your citation. Grossman's work is pretty much the most complete examination of the topic ever conducted. But like I said, I'd be happy to look at newer research.

bdunbar 15y ago

Former 0311. After I EASd I realized that a _lot_ of perfectly normal behavior in the service is downright _weird_ in the civilian world. It was perfectly normal to make my rack (bed), tuck those hospital corners in, get the folds just so ... then sleep on top of the made bed, wrapped in a poncho liner or a comforter from the PX. Because you save time and hassle in the morning. Toss the blanket in the wall-locker, tighten up the green wool blanket and you're good to go. A perfectly normal adaptation to circumstances. As with sleeping on top of the covers, so goes a lot of behavior that civilians would (do) label sociopathic: laughing at grisly crap. Gallows humor. A cynical narrow view of the world. And so on. You'd be mentally defective to NOT adapt to those circumstances. Me .. I think about some of the stuff I thought was funny, some of the things I did when I was 20, and I'm appalled. I've got my funny sea stories - other things I don't talk about. Or think about, much.

mattdeboard 15y ago
Yeah especially a lot of what would be considered racist humor in the real world is... much more acceptable. :P
gnosis 15y ago
"After I EASd I realized that a _lot_ of perfectly normal behavior in the service is downright _weird_ in the civilian world. ... I think about some of the stuff I thought was funny, some of the things I did when I was 20, and I'm appalled." This is part of the brilliance of the military: they mostly use young people who are still maturing and often don't know any better and brainwash them in to doing their bidding. Older, more experienced people are not so easily used. I have a feeling if humans were physically feeble and infirm for their first 25 or 30 years and became fit and healthy afterwards, we'd have a lot less war.
- bdunbar 15y ago
  Older, more experienced people are not so easily used. Meh. You can manipulate anyone - it just takes different triggers to manipulate an older more cynical person.