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It's emblematic of Europe in general and the "de-baptism" movement, but Germany's clergy is especially egregious in wishing to go their "Synodal Way" and embrac

It's emblematic of Europe in general and the "de-baptism" movement, but Germany's clergy is especially egregious in wishing to go their "Synodal Way" and embracing not one, but several heretical propositions all at once. See, progressives believe that if they cave in to the zeitgeist and liberalize doctrines, and become more "inclusive and accepting" where anything goes, they believe that they will bolster their numbers and enjoy an influx of people to worship with them. However, they're only following in the footsteps of a revolution from 500 years ago, which just didn't work out so well. Nobody wants a watered down faith that doesn't judge. Why be Christian at all?

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
mhoad 3y ago
This is really one hell of a take… you don’t think it maybe has something to do with the hundreds of kids they are fucking and lying about it? No, It’s the damned progressives instead? It’s literally there in the subheading which I will quote: “Speed of departures has been driven by series of child abuse scandals and accusations of a cover-up” Links: 1. https://amp.dw.com/en/child-abuse-scandal-germanys-catholic-church-fights-for-its-future/a-60553618 https://amp.dw.com/en/child-abuse-scandal-germanys-catholic-... 2. https://amp.dw.com/en/germany-study-uncovers-widespread-sexual-abuse-in-m%C3%BCnster-diocese/a-62118823 https://amp.dw.com/en/germany-study-uncovers-widespread-sexu... 3. https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2022/06/13/europe/catholic-church-germany-muenster-report-intl/index.html https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2022/06/13/europe/catholic-church-ge... 4. https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/jun/27/police-search-cologne-archdiocese-in-sexual-abuse-perjury-inquiry https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/jun/27/police-search-...
woodpanel 3y ago
Couldn’t agree more. And I’m not even catholic. The German catholic Church is often in open opposition to Rome, and in general behaving like the typical LinkedIn Company profile page during pride month. All fine by me but if your main zeitgeist you want to appeal to is the same as Nike’s and other soulless marketing endeavors don’t expect to be held to a higher esteem than said rainbow-washed corporate marketing materials
postmodest 3y ago
This take is the right take. ...in exactly the wrong way, but the right take. Charismatic Evangelical churches are the growth sector in church attendance. If your church offers a vaguely apocalyptic isolationist version of faith, you're going to attract plenty of scared conservative folk who don't like how fast the world is changing, and who want simpler answers to how to fix it. That those answers are _wrong_ doesn't matter, because that kind of ignorance among the laity is a _feature_ that guarantees more control and higher income.
gmerc 3y ago
It’s nice to make this about ideology but really the curve tracks well with the ever mounting sexual abuse scandals and corruption being exposed.
EA-3167 3y ago
> Nobody wants a watered down faith that doesn't judge. Why be Christian at all? Truly spoken like Jesus himself. /s Meanwhile I have to wonder if, like in Ireland, this is all just down to people losing their faith in an institution that spends vast time and energy protecting pedophiles.
laurencerowe 3y ago
I’m not sure it really matters how liberal or conservative the church is. Fewer and fewer people in developed countries believe. Churches will presumably reflect the values of the societies they serve but shrink as fewer feel drawn to them. I grew up in the similarly liberal English Catholic tradition, going to state funded Catholic schools. I never really believed in God but I retain an affection for the values of tolerance and charity they espoused, to ‘love thy neighbour as thyself’. Had they been more conservative I suspect the school would not have been as popular. I never saw the attraction of Richard Dawkins brand of atheism as the type of fundamentalist Christianity it attacked was so different to my experience of liberal Catholicism. But I did consider debaptism when the English Cardinal started going on homophobic rants. It seemed antithetical to the values of our congregation. Then it came out he was a closeted gay man and the public homophobia was a way of covering that up.
hdjjhhvvhga 3y ago
> Nobody wants a watered down faith that doesn't judge. Why be Christian at all? When you actually read the Gospel, you will realize that Jesus was actually the guy who was the least judging. He ended up being called "a friend of tax collectors and sinners". And somehow the Church became something else, with several attempts over centuries to go back to the source. Sometimes they would split like Luther, sometimes they would try to do their thing inside like Francis d'Assisi, but each time it started with a negation of the status quo.
- NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
  Ah yes, Jesus the least judging: "You hypocrites, scribes and Pharisees!" "You Pharisees, brood of vipers!" "The fact is, you have had five husbands, and the man you have now is not your husband." "Woe to you, Chorazin and Bethsaida!" "You have turned [this temple] into a den of thieves!" "It would be better for him if he had never been born." "Get thee behind me, Satan!" Now those are the negative judgements. Of course a positive and favorable judgement is, likewise, judgement, even if you want to conveniently omit that from your assessment: Jesus had a lot of blessings to pronounce and salvation to announce and people to send to Heaven, those are, indeed, judgements that He made, so if you want to say that "Jesus was actually the guy who was the least judging" then you're going to erase all the good He does, and that'd be a crying shame. Judgement is central to Christ's mission. We want to be judged by Him and nobody else. We stand before Him at every confession and receive His judgement. "He will come again to judge the living and the dead" is built into our Creed. The righteous should absolutely welcome and anticipate His judgement with great joy. Because He is the most humble and meek and kindest Judge that you could ever meet.
  - mdhb 3y ago
    This is really just cherry picking quotes in order to justify being a judgemental asshole behind a thin pseudo religious shield.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

mhoad 3y ago

This is really one hell of a take… you don’t think it maybe has something to do with the hundreds of kids they are fucking and lying about it? No, It’s the damned progressives instead? It’s literally there in the subheading which I will quote: “Speed of departures has been driven by series of child abuse scandals and accusations of a cover-up” Links: 1. https://amp.dw.com/en/child-abuse-scandal-germanys-catholic-church-fights-for-its-future/a-60553618 https://amp.dw.com/en/child-abuse-scandal-germanys-catholic-... 2. https://amp.dw.com/en/germany-study-uncovers-widespread-sexual-abuse-in-m%C3%BCnster-diocese/a-62118823 https://amp.dw.com/en/germany-study-uncovers-widespread-sexu... 3. https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2022/06/13/europe/catholic-church-germany-muenster-report-intl/index.html https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2022/06/13/europe/catholic-church-ge... 4. https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/jun/27/police-search-cologne-archdiocese-in-sexual-abuse-perjury-inquiry https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/jun/27/police-search-...

woodpanel 3y ago

Couldn’t agree more. And I’m not even catholic. The German catholic Church is often in open opposition to Rome, and in general behaving like the typical LinkedIn Company profile page during pride month. All fine by me but if your main zeitgeist you want to appeal to is the same as Nike’s and other soulless marketing endeavors don’t expect to be held to a higher esteem than said rainbow-washed corporate marketing materials

postmodest 3y ago

This take is the right take. ...in exactly the wrong way, but the right take. Charismatic Evangelical churches are the growth sector in church attendance. If your church offers a vaguely apocalyptic isolationist version of faith, you're going to attract plenty of scared conservative folk who don't like how fast the world is changing, and who want simpler answers to how to fix it. That those answers are _wrong_ doesn't matter, because that kind of ignorance among the laity is a _feature_ that guarantees more control and higher income.

gmerc 3y ago

It’s nice to make this about ideology but really the curve tracks well with the ever mounting sexual abuse scandals and corruption being exposed.

EA-3167 3y ago

> Nobody wants a watered down faith that doesn't judge. Why be Christian at all? Truly spoken like Jesus himself. /s Meanwhile I have to wonder if, like in Ireland, this is all just down to people losing their faith in an institution that spends vast time and energy protecting pedophiles.

laurencerowe 3y ago

I’m not sure it really matters how liberal or conservative the church is. Fewer and fewer people in developed countries believe. Churches will presumably reflect the values of the societies they serve but shrink as fewer feel drawn to them. I grew up in the similarly liberal English Catholic tradition, going to state funded Catholic schools. I never really believed in God but I retain an affection for the values of tolerance and charity they espoused, to ‘love thy neighbour as thyself’. Had they been more conservative I suspect the school would not have been as popular. I never saw the attraction of Richard Dawkins brand of atheism as the type of fundamentalist Christianity it attacked was so different to my experience of liberal Catholicism. But I did consider debaptism when the English Cardinal started going on homophobic rants. It seemed antithetical to the values of our congregation. Then it came out he was a closeted gay man and the public homophobia was a way of covering that up.

hdjjhhvvhga 3y ago

> Nobody wants a watered down faith that doesn't judge. Why be Christian at all? When you actually read the Gospel, you will realize that Jesus was actually the guy who was the least judging. He ended up being called "a friend of tax collectors and sinners". And somehow the Church became something else, with several attempts over centuries to go back to the source. Sometimes they would split like Luther, sometimes they would try to do their thing inside like Francis d'Assisi, but each time it started with a negation of the status quo.

NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
Ah yes, Jesus the least judging: "You hypocrites, scribes and Pharisees!" "You Pharisees, brood of vipers!" "The fact is, you have had five husbands, and the man you have now is not your husband." "Woe to you, Chorazin and Bethsaida!" "You have turned [this temple] into a den of thieves!" "It would be better for him if he had never been born." "Get thee behind me, Satan!" Now those are the negative judgements. Of course a positive and favorable judgement is, likewise, judgement, even if you want to conveniently omit that from your assessment: Jesus had a lot of blessings to pronounce and salvation to announce and people to send to Heaven, those are, indeed, judgements that He made, so if you want to say that "Jesus was actually the guy who was the least judging" then you're going to erase all the good He does, and that'd be a crying shame. Judgement is central to Christ's mission. We want to be judged by Him and nobody else. We stand before Him at every confession and receive His judgement. "He will come again to judge the living and the dead" is built into our Creed. The righteous should absolutely welcome and anticipate His judgement with great joy. Because He is the most humble and meek and kindest Judge that you could ever meet.
- mdhb 3y ago
  This is really just cherry picking quotes in order to justify being a judgemental asshole behind a thin pseudo religious shield.