3 ms·

This is quite inspiring news, and the fact that people are leaving "for cause" based on malfeasance of leadership is even more heartening. >All Germans who dec

This is quite inspiring news, and the fact that people are leaving "for cause" based on malfeasance of leadership is even more heartening. >All Germans who declare an affiliation to the Protestant, Catholic and Jewish denominations are officially registered as such with their local authorities. They are liable to pay the Kirchensteuer or Kultursteuer (church tax or cultural tax), which amounts to between 8% and 9% of a person’s income tax and is drawn from their monthly income by the tax office, which passes it on to the appropriate denomination. >Those who wish to leave have to officially renounce their membership, a process known as a Kirchenaustritt, or church withdrawal, by actively visiting the local register office and paying a €30 administrative fee. >The church tax was first enshrined in German law in 1919 and reaffairmed in the Reichskoncordat between Nazi Germany and the Vatican in 1933. It was reaffirmed in law again in 1949. The Catholic Church and the Nazi government were known to be one in the same during the lead up to and during WWII but the fact that the church and state are still so intermingled in 2023 is absolutely baffling. Why is this even still the case today?

detaro 3y ago
"because that's how we've always done it", and the churches still are influential enough that nobody opposed to it wants to spend the political capital on it, compared to all the other things that need fixing (and you can't just opt-out of) when there isn't a "Christian" party in power.
jacooper 3y ago
Its not. The idea is to have a stable income for religious institutions. Its an issue for mosques in Germany, as currently the funds have to come from one generous donor or foreign countries, who may ultimately have their own goals, keeping the mosque from being independent. It probably makes building mosques harder too. https://www.dw.com/en/germany-mulls-introducing-mosque-tax-for-muslims/a-46866041 https://www.dw.com/en/germany-mulls-introducing-mosque-tax-f...
baud147258 3y ago
> Catholic Church and the Nazi government were known to be one in the same during the lead up to and during WWII yes, that's why the Catholic Church wrote up an encyclical in 1937 that was condemning nazi ideology...
- Ancapistani 3y ago
  I was raised in the Church, and from what I remember it's... complicated. Like most everything involving the Vatican. The Church definitely didn't use its voice to actively denounce the NSDAP. In retrospect it's obvious that it should have done so, but at the time it wasn't a foregone conclusion that the Nazis would lose the war - and wouldn't spread. The Church was protecting its ability to continue to exist. You also have to consider the context of the times; the Russians at the time were <20 years into their explicit campaign to stamp out religion in general and convert their nation to state atheism. None of the above excuses the actions of the Church regarding Naziism, of course. I'm just sharing my understanding of why they behaved as they did at the time, based on my recollection of the catechism classes I took ~30 years ago.
  - baud147258 3y ago
    I agree. My answer was partial (in both sense of the word), so thank you for providing a more balanced view. I was also raised in the Church (still part of it, too), but my catechism classes didn't really covered much history of the Church (I think I learned just as much from my school classes).
    - Ancapistani 3y ago
      > I was also raised in the Church (still part of it, too), FWIW, I don't really have anything against the RCC - at least, nothing that doesn't apply equally to several Protestant denominations, including the one that I consider myself to belong to :). > but my catechism classes didn't really covered much history of the Church I hear that. My catechism classes were a joke, honestly. I remember keeping a notebook full of questions to ask the parish priest the next time I saw him. After a half dozen times of that, he suggested that he come to our CCD class once a month to answer everyone's questions at once. He put out a "questions box" so people could drop in whatever they were curious about without having to raise their hand and ask.
NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
There is nothing unusual about this, except for the fact that Germany's state support extends to a plurality of churches rather than just one. Before the disestablishment of state churches, it was natural and common for the state to support the Church, including through taxation and mandatory tithes. My Greek friend informs me that Eastern Orthodoxy is still run this way, but more straightforward since there is only one established Church to fund and operate. I am not sure how many other Orthodox nations support their established Church through taxation, but yeah, it's normal.

detaro 3y ago

"because that's how we've always done it", and the churches still are influential enough that nobody opposed to it wants to spend the political capital on it, compared to all the other things that need fixing (and you can't just opt-out of) when there isn't a "Christian" party in power.

jacooper 3y ago

Its not. The idea is to have a stable income for religious institutions. Its an issue for mosques in Germany, as currently the funds have to come from one generous donor or foreign countries, who may ultimately have their own goals, keeping the mosque from being independent. It probably makes building mosques harder too. https://www.dw.com/en/germany-mulls-introducing-mosque-tax-for-muslims/a-46866041 https://www.dw.com/en/germany-mulls-introducing-mosque-tax-f...

baud147258 3y ago

> Catholic Church and the Nazi government were known to be one in the same during the lead up to and during WWII yes, that's why the Catholic Church wrote up an encyclical in 1937 that was condemning nazi ideology...

Ancapistani 3y ago
I was raised in the Church, and from what I remember it's... complicated. Like most everything involving the Vatican. The Church definitely didn't use its voice to actively denounce the NSDAP. In retrospect it's obvious that it should have done so, but at the time it wasn't a foregone conclusion that the Nazis would lose the war - and wouldn't spread. The Church was protecting its ability to continue to exist. You also have to consider the context of the times; the Russians at the time were <20 years into their explicit campaign to stamp out religion in general and convert their nation to state atheism. None of the above excuses the actions of the Church regarding Naziism, of course. I'm just sharing my understanding of why they behaved as they did at the time, based on my recollection of the catechism classes I took ~30 years ago.
- baud147258 3y ago
  I agree. My answer was partial (in both sense of the word), so thank you for providing a more balanced view. I was also raised in the Church (still part of it, too), but my catechism classes didn't really covered much history of the Church (I think I learned just as much from my school classes).
  - Ancapistani 3y ago
    > I was also raised in the Church (still part of it, too), FWIW, I don't really have anything against the RCC - at least, nothing that doesn't apply equally to several Protestant denominations, including the one that I consider myself to belong to :). > but my catechism classes didn't really covered much history of the Church I hear that. My catechism classes were a joke, honestly. I remember keeping a notebook full of questions to ask the parish priest the next time I saw him. After a half dozen times of that, he suggested that he come to our CCD class once a month to answer everyone's questions at once. He put out a "questions box" so people could drop in whatever they were curious about without having to raise their hand and ask.

NoZebra120vClip 3y ago

There is nothing unusual about this, except for the fact that Germany's state support extends to a plurality of churches rather than just one. Before the disestablishment of state churches, it was natural and common for the state to support the Church, including through taxation and mandatory tithes. My Greek friend informs me that Eastern Orthodoxy is still run this way, but more straightforward since there is only one established Church to fund and operate. I am not sure how many other Orthodox nations support their established Church through taxation, but yeah, it's normal.