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What religion do you follow that you can't accept the fact that freedom of religion doesn't depend on my personal religion? Show me where in the constitution t

What religion do you follow that you can't accept the fact that freedom of religion doesn't depend on my personal religion? Show me where in the constitution that it says that you can force others to not follow their religion? Show a law that says that America doesn't protect the religious freedom of its citizens? Show me that religion isn't a protected class and you might have a point. Stop deflecting to me. I'm not the topic of conversation. My beliefs aren't the topic of debate. You trying to bully others into not following their faith - no matter what it is - is the topic of conversation. Plenty of religions don't support gays or gay marriage (Hint: Go to any middle eastern country and walk around in drag. For reference see people getting arrested during the soccer games for wearing lgbt paraphenelia). Again, so MAYBE you'll eventually get a clue by pure repetition: My religion isn't in discussion here. I've not pushed a specific religion or belief. Your narcissism and demand that others must create stuff with your message is what's on display here. Take a step back and stop focusing on me. The problem you have is you want to destroy the rights of others. Thankfully in America? Freedom of Speech and protected classes like Religion stop you from doing so. Not making you a cake or a website? If that's "discrimination"? You are reaching for that victim card to validate your "oppression". Hint: That's not oppression or discrimination... that's simply the freedom of others to not be enslaved by you and bigots who don't agree with free choices made by others based on religious beliefs.

MarkMarine 3y ago
Chris, I’m trying to meet you where you are but it’s not working. This is not the place for a discussion like this. You’re not even engaging with what I’m saying. Honest to god man I’ll talk to you about this all day and discuss it in good faith, but nested comments in HN are not the place for it. Shoot me an email, find me on Twitter, insta, whatever.
- wernercd 3y ago
  Its not working because you're not accepting reality. You're attempting to attack my religion and 'but the bible' argument is a sideshow of the fact: Religion is a protected right and individuals can't be forced to make messages that violate that right. I'm absolutely arguing in good faith despite you trying to "but Jesus" me. My point is simple and has been consistent. Trying to put me in the hotseat is the problem here because this isn't an argument about me personally it's an argument about free speech and protected classes in the US. edit: and to be clear... I'd sit down and have a beer with you anytime. You haven't been disrespectful or personally attacked even if you've try to make the discussion personally about me - there is a difference. I do respect that and wouldn't have continued the conversation otherwise.
  - MarkMarine 3y ago
    I’m using the logic that resonates for me personally, to me being Christian means being tolerant of and good to other people, especially people who are less fortunate or kicked by society. Luke 5:13 - Jesus reached out and touched the man with leprosy sticks out to me always when people are talking about trans people.
    - wernercd 3y ago
      I'm a Christian too... but that's not the topic at hand here - love the sinner, hate the sin. I can love you and hate the decisions you make because the are "wrong". I support family and love them end when they are dipshits and make stupid choices. "tolerant of and good to other people" tolerant doesn't mean you have to support or endorse. If I was, say, anti-Trans (which I'm not - you live your life. You answer for your decisions.)? as a Christian? I can still be the Christlike example and love you. Help you. And still tell you "God loves and you're in the right body". In loving you and accepting you but not supporting your "sins"? I would have the right and duty to not create a cake, shirt, website with a message that's pro-your life. I can be tolerant of you being an alcoholic or a drug addict... I would be under no pressure to buy alcohol/drugs/etc to support your bad lifestyle. And again... this isn't about me personally. It doesn't matter how fortunate you are or what life you live. You don't have the right to force others to create works that support what you think is "good". Just like I wouldn't have the right to say YOU can't create a cake for "pride month". Jesus helped less fortunate... he helped the sick, the lame, the dead. That doesn't mean he endorsed their lifestyles. Nothing about Jesus supports FORCING others to be "tolerant" of sin and to ENDORSE sinful activity. He helps? Again... that doesn't mean he loves the sin or endorses it.
      - MarkMarine 3y ago
        I agree that you don't have to be compelled to assist someone in sinning, and in there is where I think the nuance of these decisions come in. It would be one thing if someone was being forced to help physically harm someone, help murder, help steal, etc. I'm not sure that being a drug addict falls into that category, but I digress. In this case, I do not think this web designer would be helping anyone sin, honestly they are probably just providing a template and some theme, copy would be basically immaterial. Then comes the more theoretical aspect, which is how do I know I'm helping someone sin by helping gay people get married? The Pope says it's not for us to judge, and I agree. So what I'm saying is that reasonable people can disagree on this being an infringement of religious rights, and that is essentially what I was trying to talk about. I am a Marine, I went to war, I did things I can't take back or be forgiven for in the literal Old Testament version of things, but Jesus said, basically, forget all that old fire and wrath, you're forgiven if you ask for it. I try to treat everyone as most people treat me, which is to say not to throw stones at me as I walk down the street, or whatever the equivalent is in our time. That's my personal philosophy, and I think makes for much more interesting discussion about this. Do you see where I'm coming from?

MarkMarine 3y ago

Chris, I’m trying to meet you where you are but it’s not working. This is not the place for a discussion like this. You’re not even engaging with what I’m saying. Honest to god man I’ll talk to you about this all day and discuss it in good faith, but nested comments in HN are not the place for it. Shoot me an email, find me on Twitter, insta, whatever.

wernercd 3y ago
Its not working because you're not accepting reality. You're attempting to attack my religion and 'but the bible' argument is a sideshow of the fact: Religion is a protected right and individuals can't be forced to make messages that violate that right. I'm absolutely arguing in good faith despite you trying to "but Jesus" me. My point is simple and has been consistent. Trying to put me in the hotseat is the problem here because this isn't an argument about me personally it's an argument about free speech and protected classes in the US. edit: and to be clear... I'd sit down and have a beer with you anytime. You haven't been disrespectful or personally attacked even if you've try to make the discussion personally about me - there is a difference. I do respect that and wouldn't have continued the conversation otherwise.
- MarkMarine 3y ago
  I’m using the logic that resonates for me personally, to me being Christian means being tolerant of and good to other people, especially people who are less fortunate or kicked by society. Luke 5:13 - Jesus reached out and touched the man with leprosy sticks out to me always when people are talking about trans people.
  - wernercd 3y ago
    I'm a Christian too... but that's not the topic at hand here - love the sinner, hate the sin. I can love you and hate the decisions you make because the are "wrong". I support family and love them end when they are dipshits and make stupid choices. "tolerant of and good to other people" tolerant doesn't mean you have to support or endorse. If I was, say, anti-Trans (which I'm not - you live your life. You answer for your decisions.)? as a Christian? I can still be the Christlike example and love you. Help you. And still tell you "God loves and you're in the right body". In loving you and accepting you but not supporting your "sins"? I would have the right and duty to not create a cake, shirt, website with a message that's pro-your life. I can be tolerant of you being an alcoholic or a drug addict... I would be under no pressure to buy alcohol/drugs/etc to support your bad lifestyle. And again... this isn't about me personally. It doesn't matter how fortunate you are or what life you live. You don't have the right to force others to create works that support what you think is "good". Just like I wouldn't have the right to say YOU can't create a cake for "pride month". Jesus helped less fortunate... he helped the sick, the lame, the dead. That doesn't mean he endorsed their lifestyles. Nothing about Jesus supports FORCING others to be "tolerant" of sin and to ENDORSE sinful activity. He helps? Again... that doesn't mean he loves the sin or endorses it.
    - MarkMarine 3y ago
      I agree that you don't have to be compelled to assist someone in sinning, and in there is where I think the nuance of these decisions come in. It would be one thing if someone was being forced to help physically harm someone, help murder, help steal, etc. I'm not sure that being a drug addict falls into that category, but I digress. In this case, I do not think this web designer would be helping anyone sin, honestly they are probably just providing a template and some theme, copy would be basically immaterial. Then comes the more theoretical aspect, which is how do I know I'm helping someone sin by helping gay people get married? The Pope says it's not for us to judge, and I agree. So what I'm saying is that reasonable people can disagree on this being an infringement of religious rights, and that is essentially what I was trying to talk about. I am a Marine, I went to war, I did things I can't take back or be forgiven for in the literal Old Testament version of things, but Jesus said, basically, forget all that old fire and wrath, you're forgiven if you ask for it. I try to treat everyone as most people treat me, which is to say not to throw stones at me as I walk down the street, or whatever the equivalent is in our time. That's my personal philosophy, and I think makes for much more interesting discussion about this. Do you see where I'm coming from?