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TRT is now a fully embedded thing in the United States so this isn't totally surprising. I've talked to way too many 20 year olds who get cypionate from a doc

TRT is now a fully embedded thing in the United States so this isn't totally surprising. I've talked to way too many 20 year olds who get cypionate from a doc in the box who manages to find "low T" It's just so easy now. And if you need it, great. But for a lot of people it's just a way to boost T for athletic/aesthetic reasons without a ton of attention to the health side of it. The risks are generally low, but boosting to higher T levels does come with real health risks that should be met with regular testing with a doctor.

justrealist 3y ago
Lot of parallels to legal pot here. If the medical community had been more open about the negligible risks of moderate doses, we could have had a real conversation about it and gotten people reasonable supplementation. Instead, the medical community stayed lockstep in calling it unhealthy/illegal and people learned about it from youtube and bb.com forums.
tayo42 3y ago
hah i was thinking about trt too when i saw this title. I cant believe how much seemingly casual use it is getting for people to be a little better at their hobbies.
- rcarr 3y ago
  > I cant believe how much seemingly casual use it is getting for people to be a little better at their hobbies. From my general observations, insecurity is rife in bodybuilding but generally nonexistent in powerlifting and strongman. Powerlifters/strongmen will use steroids for sport performance reasons and they’re generally in the sport because they just like lifting heavy shit. They’re not really comparing themselves to others, just trying to beat their previous PR and they’re generally not doing it to attract women. To an untrained eye they can often times look like a fat dude. In contrast, a lot of bodybuilders are in the sport because they’re insecure and/or want to attract women. I would say the majority of lads training in the gym are really doing it for these two reasons. This is only made worse when they scan the gym and compare the weight they can lift with that of a power lifter who’s often times no where near as big yet capable of lifting more. As a result, you’re far, far more likely to see bodybuilders getting in scraps than powerlifters and strongmen, half because of the testosterone and half because of the insecurity. Sometimes they’ll find the confidence they’re seeking if they get big enough or start getting women but often times not. A lot of them would be better off doing a a martial art or boxing, probably the former as there’s more of a culture of “you only use this in self defence if you absolutely have to” whereas the majority of local street fighters almost always seem to have a boxing background and something to prove.
  - 634636346 3y ago
    > This is only made worse when they scan the gym and compare the weight they can lift with that of a power lifter who’s often times no where near as big yet capable of lifting more No one in a gym is made insecure by someone who is clinically obese, irrespective of how much they can lift. It's even more ridiculous when you realize how many of these people are obese, and on steroids.
    - rcarr 3y ago
      Not all power lifters are clinically obese. You will quite often see a smaller scrawny powerlifter out lift a bodybuilder, purely because they’ve been following strength specific programs rather than focussing on hypertrophy.
moduspol 3y ago
> And if you need it, great. In defense of the people getting it: that's kind of the tricky part. My understanding of medical science is that we have a big wide range of what "normal" testosterone levels are in males, and it's expected to drop to some extent as you age, but the range is so big as to be almost meaningless. I'm not sure what the long-term answer is, but we could benefit a lot from long-term studies on T levels throughout the male lifetime to get a better idea of what the optimal level is for at least the "average" male. This feels like one of the areas of study that is politically problematic, and therefore avoided.
- jiggywiggy 3y ago
  It would be interesting to understand why the body is lowering it, might also be the body adopting to certain conditions. Could be that artificially boosting it, goes against something the body is trying to regulate. Or it could just be a side-effect of body in decline.
bobobob420 3y ago
When people's body stop producing testosterone on their own and they are forced to spend money on weekly injections for the rest of their life people will learn :) When you can't go anywhere or travel without your testosterone injections people will see how overkill it was to get on HRT. Hope these people are comfortable freezing their sperm. Now if you are over the age of 60-65 blast away
- 634636346 3y ago
  > HRT Whoa, it's not HRT, it's TRT. Completely different. HRT is for people with gender dysphoria, whereas TRT is for normal, well-adjusted, no-dysphoric men to maintain healthy testosterone levels (or as high as they can convince their PCP, or more likely, a telemedicine mill, to prescribe), regardless of how healthy they eat, how much alcohol they drink, and how consistent they are with exercise and sleep. Totally not the same thing.
  - bobobob420 3y ago
    I think you are the one confused. "HRT is for people with gender dysphoria". Nope. Its for all different types of people with all different types of conditions. Lacking testosterone being one of them. TRT is a form of HRT treatment. Im not sure why you stood to correct me and bring up gender dysphoria when it is not even the most common form of HRT. "whereas TRT is for normal, well-adjusted, no-dysphoric men to maintain healthy testosterone levels". Not sure why you are so persistent on alluding to gender. These discussions have nothing to do with gender dsyphoria.
avion23 3y ago
>The risks are generally low, but boosting to higher T levels does come with real health risks that should be met with regular testing with a doctor. Most people don't have a clue. That includes doctors. - the reference range has been adapted times and times again - testosterone levels have been falling since industrial times - for some strange and contrived reasons a lot of people think that the levels of a healthy 18-year old are "unhealthy" as soon as you pass 40. But you should ask yourself what makes it "unhealthy". And why a low level should be "healthy" Instead of judging the 20 year olds who want to be at the upper range you should have a look at the side effects which come with the lower range. And then have a look at the general population and check for these side effects.
- TaupeRanger 3y ago
  You are displaying exactly the problematic cherry picking that you are railing against, but from the other side. Reference ranges are always adapted to specific populations. Testosterone levels have not necessarily been falling since industrial times - records farther back than 50-70 years are extremely error prone and sporadic since methods of testing have changed dramatically. Doctors are not saying that a 40 year old having the same testosterone level as an 18 year are "unhealthy" en masse. It is simply normal for the hormone to decrease as one ages. There is no "strange and contrived reason". It's just how the human body works and isn't a problem unless it goes too low and causes dysfunction of some kind. The reason for lower testosterone is probably very boring and not some insidious thing like you're implying: people are more obese because they eat more calories, and this is strongly linked to lower testosterone levels.
  - avion23 3y ago
    >Reference ranges are always adapted to specific populations. in this case, reference ranges are adapted so people don't qualify for therapy. The side effects of the low levels don't change just because you change the reference range >Testosterone levels have not necessarily been falling since industrial times - records farther back than 50-70 years are extremely error prone and sporadic since methods of testing have changed dramatically. My exhaustive reasearch has shown the opposite. Interestinglingly, even older guys now have higher testosterone levels than younger guys. So you can even see it in the living specimen. >Doctors are not saying that a 40 year old having the same testosterone level as an 18 year are "unhealthy" en masse. It is simply normal for the hormone to decrease as one ages. There is no "strange and contrived reason". It's just how the human body works and isn't a problem unless it goes too low and causes dysfunction of some kind. 1. doctors say that, en masse. 2. There is some evidence that the lower testosterone levels are caused by injuries and dysfunctions. At least some studies point to that. An analogy: Age doesn't cause bad teeth. Caries and injuries cause bad teeth. If these don't happen, teeth stay healthy. Saying it's normal that your teeth fall out is lazy. >The reason for lower testosterone is probably very boring and not some insidious thing like you're implying: people are more obese because they eat more calories, and this is strongly linked to lower testosterone levels. You are partially right. Testosterone is regulated through estrogene. Having high estrogene limits your testosterone production. Obesity and less sport is sufficient. But a lot of non-obese and healthy people who work out also have low testosterone levels
satysin 3y ago
This is of interest to me as I saw an Endocrinologist last Monday as I had a blood test a few weeks ago and my testosterone level was "quite low" at 257 (bottom of the range being 249). Anything under 300 along with symptoms (of which I have several hence the blood test in the first place) means further investigation so I am now waiting for the results of a whole host of blood tests that I did last Tuesday that the Endocrinologist ordered. 9 vials! Never had so much blood taken in one go. I am 39 and never really gave any thought to my testosterone levels if I am honest. But I have been suffering from a whole host of weird issues the past ~3 years. However I am not sure if TRT is something I want to do if it comes back that they are indeed low and it wasn't just a one-off in the first test. At least it isn't something I want to try first, I will see what other things I can do naturally such as diet changes before I head down the TRT injections, gels, etc. route. For what it's worth I am in [redacted] not the US and I've never known anyone on TRT. Honestly I had never even heard of it outside of sports with people that [ab]use such things.
- avion23 3y ago
  Do your own research on that. Even endocrinologists oversee obvious reasons for low testosterone. Usually, low testosterone is more a symptom. Better fix the underlying issue. Get somebody with expertise to look at your tests (i.e. not a government-paid doctor). Look also into thyroid etc
  - satysin 3y ago
    Yes the recent blood work has all the diabetes, cortisol, thyroid and some other stuff being tested. Plus a brain/pituitary gland MRI in a few days. Thankfully here I get all my results directly in accessible formats (so like a normal video for my MRI results) so I can easily research myself or go for a second opinion without the hassle of having to get my results like back in the UK. Having said that the Endocrinologist I saw was highly recommended by a close Doctor friend so I have confidence in them.
- mmh0000 3y ago
  I am in nearly the same boat as you. I'm 38, and 1 year ago, I had my testosterone levels checked. The results came back at 273ng/dL, which is considered deficient. When I asked about TRT, My doctor refused to prescribe it, but, couldn't provide any valid reasons or research to backup his one justification that "it makes your blood thicker, and increases the risk of heart attack" (see below). After doing tons of reading, I decided TRT is something I want. I went to a very questionable "doctor" who will prescribe effectively anything you ask for—(Just Google 'Mens Health Clinic <your area>'). Below, I've listed some of the more compelling videos and articles I went through [0] The main reason I wanted to try TRT is that I've suffered from severe depression for a long-time; literally, suicide was a daily thought. I tried all the other things people say to do; I ate right, and I religiously tracked my diet. I got sleep-tracking apps and devices and fixed my sleep to get 8+ hours of sleep. After all that didn't help, I went to my normal family doctor, who prescribed escitalopram which "fixed" my depression by making me unable to feel anything, which was a terrible way to live. So I stopped taking that. I started TRT back in July of 2022. After being on TRT for about five months, the depression just disappeared. I've had other benefits, too, such as significantly improved musical tone (though this isn't why I started TRT, but it's a nice side-effect). [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBhfP3MBYLU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBhfP3MBYLU [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3j232kdcnSQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3j232kdcnSQ [0] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32081788/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32081788/ [0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3897047/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3897047/ [0] https://www.eu-focus.europeanurology.com/article/S2405-4569(20)30062-6/fulltext https://www.eu-focus.europeanurology.com/article/S2405-4569(...
jejeyyy77 3y ago
what are the health risks?
- tptacek 3y ago
  Prostatitis and amplification of undetected existing prostate cancer, and blood clots, are the big two I think? There are minor ones, like decreased sperm count and acne, but people going on TRT probably don't much care about them.
- symlinkk 3y ago
  I was told your own body stops producing testosterone and this is permanent. So you are signing up to get injections in your ass once a week for the rest of your life. No idea if this is actually true though, I find it hard to believe personally as many bodybuilders will cycle on and off steroids constantly.
88913527 3y ago
I recall at some point a huge flood of ads for TRT and Testosterone boosters, seemingly out of nowhere. A bit separate from the whole line of more typical products from companies like Hims (for hair loss, ED, etc). For that reason, I don't trust it. It's some land rush and money grab and I don't think proper due diligence is being done.
daniel-cussen 3y ago
[dead]
bequanna 3y ago
> but boosting to higher T levels does come with real health risks Absolutely, like shutting off your body's natural T production (!)
dirtyid 3y ago
Yeah usage from early 20s group at my gym significantly higher than 10 years ago. But also lots of unimpressive results due to poor training or weak T responders.

justrealist 3y ago

Lot of parallels to legal pot here. If the medical community had been more open about the negligible risks of moderate doses, we could have had a real conversation about it and gotten people reasonable supplementation. Instead, the medical community stayed lockstep in calling it unhealthy/illegal and people learned about it from youtube and bb.com forums.

tayo42 3y ago

hah i was thinking about trt too when i saw this title. I cant believe how much seemingly casual use it is getting for people to be a little better at their hobbies.

rcarr 3y ago
> I cant believe how much seemingly casual use it is getting for people to be a little better at their hobbies. From my general observations, insecurity is rife in bodybuilding but generally nonexistent in powerlifting and strongman. Powerlifters/strongmen will use steroids for sport performance reasons and they’re generally in the sport because they just like lifting heavy shit. They’re not really comparing themselves to others, just trying to beat their previous PR and they’re generally not doing it to attract women. To an untrained eye they can often times look like a fat dude. In contrast, a lot of bodybuilders are in the sport because they’re insecure and/or want to attract women. I would say the majority of lads training in the gym are really doing it for these two reasons. This is only made worse when they scan the gym and compare the weight they can lift with that of a power lifter who’s often times no where near as big yet capable of lifting more. As a result, you’re far, far more likely to see bodybuilders getting in scraps than powerlifters and strongmen, half because of the testosterone and half because of the insecurity. Sometimes they’ll find the confidence they’re seeking if they get big enough or start getting women but often times not. A lot of them would be better off doing a a martial art or boxing, probably the former as there’s more of a culture of “you only use this in self defence if you absolutely have to” whereas the majority of local street fighters almost always seem to have a boxing background and something to prove.
- 634636346 3y ago
  > This is only made worse when they scan the gym and compare the weight they can lift with that of a power lifter who’s often times no where near as big yet capable of lifting more No one in a gym is made insecure by someone who is clinically obese, irrespective of how much they can lift. It's even more ridiculous when you realize how many of these people are obese, and on steroids.
  - rcarr 3y ago
    Not all power lifters are clinically obese. You will quite often see a smaller scrawny powerlifter out lift a bodybuilder, purely because they’ve been following strength specific programs rather than focussing on hypertrophy.

moduspol 3y ago

> And if you need it, great. In defense of the people getting it: that's kind of the tricky part. My understanding of medical science is that we have a big wide range of what "normal" testosterone levels are in males, and it's expected to drop to some extent as you age, but the range is so big as to be almost meaningless. I'm not sure what the long-term answer is, but we could benefit a lot from long-term studies on T levels throughout the male lifetime to get a better idea of what the optimal level is for at least the "average" male. This feels like one of the areas of study that is politically problematic, and therefore avoided.

jiggywiggy 3y ago
It would be interesting to understand why the body is lowering it, might also be the body adopting to certain conditions. Could be that artificially boosting it, goes against something the body is trying to regulate. Or it could just be a side-effect of body in decline.

bobobob420 3y ago

When people's body stop producing testosterone on their own and they are forced to spend money on weekly injections for the rest of their life people will learn :) When you can't go anywhere or travel without your testosterone injections people will see how overkill it was to get on HRT. Hope these people are comfortable freezing their sperm. Now if you are over the age of 60-65 blast away

634636346 3y ago
> HRT Whoa, it's not HRT, it's TRT. Completely different. HRT is for people with gender dysphoria, whereas TRT is for normal, well-adjusted, no-dysphoric men to maintain healthy testosterone levels (or as high as they can convince their PCP, or more likely, a telemedicine mill, to prescribe), regardless of how healthy they eat, how much alcohol they drink, and how consistent they are with exercise and sleep. Totally not the same thing.
- bobobob420 3y ago
  I think you are the one confused. "HRT is for people with gender dysphoria". Nope. Its for all different types of people with all different types of conditions. Lacking testosterone being one of them. TRT is a form of HRT treatment. Im not sure why you stood to correct me and bring up gender dysphoria when it is not even the most common form of HRT. "whereas TRT is for normal, well-adjusted, no-dysphoric men to maintain healthy testosterone levels". Not sure why you are so persistent on alluding to gender. These discussions have nothing to do with gender dsyphoria.

avion23 3y ago

>The risks are generally low, but boosting to higher T levels does come with real health risks that should be met with regular testing with a doctor. Most people don't have a clue. That includes doctors. - the reference range has been adapted times and times again - testosterone levels have been falling since industrial times - for some strange and contrived reasons a lot of people think that the levels of a healthy 18-year old are "unhealthy" as soon as you pass 40. But you should ask yourself what makes it "unhealthy". And why a low level should be "healthy" Instead of judging the 20 year olds who want to be at the upper range you should have a look at the side effects which come with the lower range. And then have a look at the general population and check for these side effects.

TaupeRanger 3y ago
You are displaying exactly the problematic cherry picking that you are railing against, but from the other side. Reference ranges are always adapted to specific populations. Testosterone levels have not necessarily been falling since industrial times - records farther back than 50-70 years are extremely error prone and sporadic since methods of testing have changed dramatically. Doctors are not saying that a 40 year old having the same testosterone level as an 18 year are "unhealthy" en masse. It is simply normal for the hormone to decrease as one ages. There is no "strange and contrived reason". It's just how the human body works and isn't a problem unless it goes too low and causes dysfunction of some kind. The reason for lower testosterone is probably very boring and not some insidious thing like you're implying: people are more obese because they eat more calories, and this is strongly linked to lower testosterone levels.
- avion23 3y ago
  >Reference ranges are always adapted to specific populations. in this case, reference ranges are adapted so people don't qualify for therapy. The side effects of the low levels don't change just because you change the reference range >Testosterone levels have not necessarily been falling since industrial times - records farther back than 50-70 years are extremely error prone and sporadic since methods of testing have changed dramatically. My exhaustive reasearch has shown the opposite. Interestinglingly, even older guys now have higher testosterone levels than younger guys. So you can even see it in the living specimen. >Doctors are not saying that a 40 year old having the same testosterone level as an 18 year are "unhealthy" en masse. It is simply normal for the hormone to decrease as one ages. There is no "strange and contrived reason". It's just how the human body works and isn't a problem unless it goes too low and causes dysfunction of some kind. 1. doctors say that, en masse. 2. There is some evidence that the lower testosterone levels are caused by injuries and dysfunctions. At least some studies point to that. An analogy: Age doesn't cause bad teeth. Caries and injuries cause bad teeth. If these don't happen, teeth stay healthy. Saying it's normal that your teeth fall out is lazy. >The reason for lower testosterone is probably very boring and not some insidious thing like you're implying: people are more obese because they eat more calories, and this is strongly linked to lower testosterone levels. You are partially right. Testosterone is regulated through estrogene. Having high estrogene limits your testosterone production. Obesity and less sport is sufficient. But a lot of non-obese and healthy people who work out also have low testosterone levels

satysin 3y ago

This is of interest to me as I saw an Endocrinologist last Monday as I had a blood test a few weeks ago and my testosterone level was "quite low" at 257 (bottom of the range being 249). Anything under 300 along with symptoms (of which I have several hence the blood test in the first place) means further investigation so I am now waiting for the results of a whole host of blood tests that I did last Tuesday that the Endocrinologist ordered. 9 vials! Never had so much blood taken in one go. I am 39 and never really gave any thought to my testosterone levels if I am honest. But I have been suffering from a whole host of weird issues the past ~3 years. However I am not sure if TRT is something I want to do if it comes back that they are indeed low and it wasn't just a one-off in the first test. At least it isn't something I want to try first, I will see what other things I can do naturally such as diet changes before I head down the TRT injections, gels, etc. route. For what it's worth I am in [redacted] not the US and I've never known anyone on TRT. Honestly I had never even heard of it outside of sports with people that [ab]use such things.

avion23 3y ago
Do your own research on that. Even endocrinologists oversee obvious reasons for low testosterone. Usually, low testosterone is more a symptom. Better fix the underlying issue. Get somebody with expertise to look at your tests (i.e. not a government-paid doctor). Look also into thyroid etc
- satysin 3y ago
  Yes the recent blood work has all the diabetes, cortisol, thyroid and some other stuff being tested. Plus a brain/pituitary gland MRI in a few days. Thankfully here I get all my results directly in accessible formats (so like a normal video for my MRI results) so I can easily research myself or go for a second opinion without the hassle of having to get my results like back in the UK. Having said that the Endocrinologist I saw was highly recommended by a close Doctor friend so I have confidence in them.
mmh0000 3y ago
I am in nearly the same boat as you. I'm 38, and 1 year ago, I had my testosterone levels checked. The results came back at 273ng/dL, which is considered deficient. When I asked about TRT, My doctor refused to prescribe it, but, couldn't provide any valid reasons or research to backup his one justification that "it makes your blood thicker, and increases the risk of heart attack" (see below). After doing tons of reading, I decided TRT is something I want. I went to a very questionable "doctor" who will prescribe effectively anything you ask for—(Just Google 'Mens Health Clinic <your area>'). Below, I've listed some of the more compelling videos and articles I went through [0] The main reason I wanted to try TRT is that I've suffered from severe depression for a long-time; literally, suicide was a daily thought. I tried all the other things people say to do; I ate right, and I religiously tracked my diet. I got sleep-tracking apps and devices and fixed my sleep to get 8+ hours of sleep. After all that didn't help, I went to my normal family doctor, who prescribed escitalopram which "fixed" my depression by making me unable to feel anything, which was a terrible way to live. So I stopped taking that. I started TRT back in July of 2022. After being on TRT for about five months, the depression just disappeared. I've had other benefits, too, such as significantly improved musical tone (though this isn't why I started TRT, but it's a nice side-effect). [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBhfP3MBYLU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBhfP3MBYLU [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3j232kdcnSQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3j232kdcnSQ [0] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32081788/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32081788/ [0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3897047/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3897047/ [0] https://www.eu-focus.europeanurology.com/article/S2405-4569(20)30062-6/fulltext https://www.eu-focus.europeanurology.com/article/S2405-4569(...

jejeyyy77 3y ago

what are the health risks?

tptacek 3y ago
Prostatitis and amplification of undetected existing prostate cancer, and blood clots, are the big two I think? There are minor ones, like decreased sperm count and acne, but people going on TRT probably don't much care about them.
symlinkk 3y ago
I was told your own body stops producing testosterone and this is permanent. So you are signing up to get injections in your ass once a week for the rest of your life. No idea if this is actually true though, I find it hard to believe personally as many bodybuilders will cycle on and off steroids constantly.

88913527 3y ago

I recall at some point a huge flood of ads for TRT and Testosterone boosters, seemingly out of nowhere. A bit separate from the whole line of more typical products from companies like Hims (for hair loss, ED, etc). For that reason, I don't trust it. It's some land rush and money grab and I don't think proper due diligence is being done.

daniel-cussen 3y ago

[dead]

bequanna 3y ago

> but boosting to higher T levels does come with real health risks Absolutely, like shutting off your body's natural T production (!)

dirtyid 3y ago

Yeah usage from early 20s group at my gym significantly higher than 10 years ago. But also lots of unimpressive results due to poor training or weak T responders.