6 ms·

This is gender affirming care.

ravenstine 3y ago
I'd be willing to bet a substantial number of these men wouldn't take steroids if society/women didn't reward them for having a chiseled (and often times unnatural) aesthetic, so considering it gender affirming care is a stretch in the general sense.
- LanceH 3y ago
  There is the whole feeling younger, stronger, healthier aspect that people really like.
  - ravenstine 3y ago
    Taking exogenous steroids is usually contraindicated. Some people will take steroids for other reasons, but a key reason many people work out the gym is for the physique. Speaking as if nobody is going to the gym to look good to other people is a form of denial.
    - smcl 3y ago
      Wait now it's "other people" - before you were pretty certain the problem was women
- AbrahamParangi 3y ago
  Gender affirming care actually can include gender-affirming procedures for cisgender people such as reconstructive or cosmetic surgeries. Under that frame I don't see how "I need higher T to feel like a real man" is much different.
  - LanceH 3y ago
    Sure, if you want to deliberately conflate different issues.
    - pessimizer 3y ago
      Only if you think that comparing a trans man who wants to take testosterone to feel more like a man to a biological male who wants to take testosterone to feel more like a man is silly or deceptive.
      - tryhtgyt 3y ago
        If a woman wants to take testosterone to deepen her voice and change her hair pattern, that's up to her, but she'll never be a man. Let's be realistic here.
        deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
    - Capricorn2481 3y ago
      They're really not different issues, though. Most men using TRT would cite, in some fashion, wanting to feel more manly. That is gender affirmation. Testosterone is beneficial for everyone. If a man or woman wants to do TRT, it is not illegal to do so. But if they cite some kind of gender dysphoria, it is suddenly extremely taboo. It's a bit humorous living in a society where roided out podcasters complain about people not accepting their natural identities or hormones
- igloopan 3y ago
  Isn't that the case with all gender-associated traits though? Women wouldn't dress the way they do if society in general didn't reward them for doing so.
  - ravenstine 3y ago
    That's the point.
- EliRivers 3y ago
  Only tangential to the theme, but continuing your thought, in my experience the rewards for having a chiselled aesthetic comes more from men than women. It's a status marker amongst (some groups of) men. The heavily muscled male look is more of a male fantasy than female.
  - justrealist 3y ago
    What women say they are attracted to, and what they respond positively to IRL, are not the same. A chiseled look not enough to land someone on its own, but it absolutely will get you a conversation from women who otherwise would not have even talked to you.
    - Capricorn2481 3y ago
      And it would get you not even passing glances from other women because they don't like that look. > What women say they are attracted to, and what they respond positively to IRL, are not the same. There are different women with different preferences. This comment, on its face, doesn't sound like you're talking about a singular woman, but lamenting the fact that one woman is not upfront about the preferences of...another woman she's never met.
      - justrealist 3y ago
        I am saying that: - after I started lifting, I started getting attention and conversations I did not get before - young men are not complete idiots, and can observe that this is true
  - oh_sigh 3y ago
    In my adult life, I've been both a beanpole and a fairly muscled dude(495 lbs squat, 275 bench, 600 DL) I had women attracted to me both times, but the type of woman was very different. I also got groped and felt up far more and other far more overt displays of interest by women when muscled.
  - ravenstine 3y ago
- smcl 3y ago
  I'm not sure you can put this on women - since not only can men can be into men, but women can take steroids (and of course be into both men and women). Plus it's not necessarily the case that people use these steroids to become more attractive to a prospective partner - while I don't take anything like this I do work out, play sports and run - and this is more for my person health and satisfaction than to make myself attractive to anyone else. I think the broader point being made was that there's a lot of modern-day backlash from certain groups against a specific type of "gender affirming care" - and that it's worth remembering that such care is already relatively commonplace even if you may not think of it that way currently.
  - ravenstine 3y ago
    Human behavior lies on a normal distribution, so the fact that some women take steroids doesn't detract from the motivations of the substantially larger portion of men who use them. > Plus it's not necessarily the case that people use these steroids to become more attractive to a prospective partner The word "necessary" is one you uttered. > while I don't take anything like this I do work out, play sports and run - and this is more for my person health and satisfaction than to make myself attractive to anyone else. What relevance does that have? Roids are a different set of tradeoffs from that of working out and playing sports. > I think the broader point being made was that there's a lot of modern-day backlash from certain groups against a specific type of "gender affirming care" - and that it's worth remembering that such care is already relatively commonplace even if you may not think of it that way currently. The backlash is not founded on the novelty of gender affirming care; it usually hinges on whether the form of gender affirming care that most people think of when they hear that term is medically sound in many cases and the push to normalize something that would otherwise be classified as a mental disorder. Some people are pushing back against the very concept of gender affirming care, yes, but the debate is way more complex than that. > and that it's worth remembering that such care is already relatively commonplace even if you may not think of it that way currently. Not everyone agrees that every form of "gender affirming care" is equivalent, or whether it needs to be overly intellectualized in such a manner. A modern westerner might be convinced that use of Rogaine should be classified as "gender affirming care" when, in reality, the proximal motivation for the vast majority of men using Rogaine is because they want to keep their hair.
- jojobas 3y ago
  Same could be said about "real gender affirming care". It's all this pesky society that won't take your word for anything.
- anigbrowl 3y ago
  Gay/bi youth are estimated to abuse steroids about 5-6 times as much as exclusively heterosexual boys. I don't know what % of the fitness community are gay, but it's A Lot, more so in the bodybuilding/powerlifting demographic vs general athletics. Hypermasculinity and homo/bisexuality have been culturally intertwined for millennia, the Iliad is centered on just such a relationship. EDIT: forgot the link to the study in question https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3934340/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3934340/
  - smcl 3y ago
    This is an interesting find and explains why “ravenstine” has sort of disappeared from this thread, having asserted that this use of steroids is simply down to men wanting to impress women (then doubling down in it, and sprinkling in some anti-trans stuff in to boot)
pessimizer 3y ago
[flagged]
- dang 3y ago
  Please don't do this here.
mrits 3y ago
What gender? The result of steroids is beneficial to how most men and women would prefer to look. Leaner and more defined bodies.
- pessimizer 3y ago
  Both, then. Or all?
archsurface 3y ago
Are you sure? This is the UK (not US), where eg the Tavistock clinic was closed down.
- pjc50 3y ago
  Seems to be nothing to do with Tavistock, and transmasc people are (perhaps surprisingly) never mentioned in the article. The OP was making the point that "making your body conform to your gender" is also something that cis people can and do do. (By the time it was closed down the queues at the Tavistock were on the order of years, so lots of UK trans people have had to go private at some point)
  - archsurface 3y ago
    Edit: deleted. This topic is too muddled.
dang 3y ago
"Eschew flamebait. Avoid generic tangents." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Edit: we already asked you once to stop posting unsubstantive comments and flamebait, and your account has unfortunately continued to do this. We end up having to ban such accounts because this is not what this site is for and destroys what it is for. I don't want to ban you, so if you'd please review the guidelines and stick to them, we'd appreciate it.
- anigbrowl 3y ago
  It's not flamebait. This perspective is widespread and discussed with nuance in the fitness community, and also in the medical community, eg https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37285414/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37285414/ It's in no way a controversial or baity observation.
  - dang 3y ago
    In that case it needed more information to disambiguate from flamebait. Especially since the account has a history thereof.
    - anigbrowl 3y ago
      Have you considered the possibility that many people posting in this thread are sufficiently interested in physical culture to already know about this point of view? Anyone who reads weightlifting forums where steroids are likely to be discussed already encounters this idea on a daily basis. I get that it's a new concept for you, but your assumption was misplaced.
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
    - zoklet-enjoyer 3y ago
      I didn't intend the comment to be taken that way. Also not sure what other comment I made that was considered flamebait. Maybe I missed that being called out or just forgot. Anyway, steroid use is gender affirming care. They're taken by men who perceive themselves as what society has generally considered a man and they want to emphasize those characteristics. I think it's interesting all the discussion lately of gender affirming care but barely see any discussion on cis/heterosexual people taking hormones and undergoing cosmetic procedures to emphasize those gendered physical characteristics. I think there are 4 groups of people who take hormones. 1. Those who take them for competitive advantage in sports 2. Those who take them because a doctor has told them that their body is producing less than it should be 3. Those who take them because they want the physical attributes that goes along with it because of how they identify 4. Biohackers All of those reasons are valid

I'd be willing to bet a substantial number of these men wouldn't take steroids if society/women didn't reward them for having a chiseled (and often times unnatural) aesthetic, so considering it gender affirming care is a stretch in the general sense.

LanceH 3y ago
There is the whole feeling younger, stronger, healthier aspect that people really like.
- ravenstine 3y ago
  Taking exogenous steroids is usually contraindicated. Some people will take steroids for other reasons, but a key reason many people work out the gym is for the physique. Speaking as if nobody is going to the gym to look good to other people is a form of denial.
  - smcl 3y ago
    Wait now it's "other people" - before you were pretty certain the problem was women
AbrahamParangi 3y ago
Gender affirming care actually can include gender-affirming procedures for cisgender people such as reconstructive or cosmetic surgeries. Under that frame I don't see how "I need higher T to feel like a real man" is much different.
- LanceH 3y ago
  Sure, if you want to deliberately conflate different issues.
  - pessimizer 3y ago
    Only if you think that comparing a trans man who wants to take testosterone to feel more like a man to a biological male who wants to take testosterone to feel more like a man is silly or deceptive.
    - tryhtgyt 3y ago
      If a woman wants to take testosterone to deepen her voice and change her hair pattern, that's up to her, but she'll never be a man. Let's be realistic here.
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
  - Capricorn2481 3y ago
    They're really not different issues, though. Most men using TRT would cite, in some fashion, wanting to feel more manly. That is gender affirmation. Testosterone is beneficial for everyone. If a man or woman wants to do TRT, it is not illegal to do so. But if they cite some kind of gender dysphoria, it is suddenly extremely taboo. It's a bit humorous living in a society where roided out podcasters complain about people not accepting their natural identities or hormones
igloopan 3y ago
Isn't that the case with all gender-associated traits though? Women wouldn't dress the way they do if society in general didn't reward them for doing so.
- ravenstine 3y ago
  That's the point.
EliRivers 3y ago
Only tangential to the theme, but continuing your thought, in my experience the rewards for having a chiselled aesthetic comes more from men than women. It's a status marker amongst (some groups of) men. The heavily muscled male look is more of a male fantasy than female.
- justrealist 3y ago
  What women say they are attracted to, and what they respond positively to IRL, are not the same. A chiseled look not enough to land someone on its own, but it absolutely will get you a conversation from women who otherwise would not have even talked to you.
  - Capricorn2481 3y ago
    And it would get you not even passing glances from other women because they don't like that look. > What women say they are attracted to, and what they respond positively to IRL, are not the same. There are different women with different preferences. This comment, on its face, doesn't sound like you're talking about a singular woman, but lamenting the fact that one woman is not upfront about the preferences of...another woman she's never met.
    - justrealist 3y ago
      I am saying that: - after I started lifting, I started getting attention and conversations I did not get before - young men are not complete idiots, and can observe that this is true
- oh_sigh 3y ago
  In my adult life, I've been both a beanpole and a fairly muscled dude(495 lbs squat, 275 bench, 600 DL) I had women attracted to me both times, but the type of woman was very different. I also got groped and felt up far more and other far more overt displays of interest by women when muscled.
- ravenstine 3y ago
smcl 3y ago
I'm not sure you can put this on women - since not only can men can be into men, but women can take steroids (and of course be into both men and women). Plus it's not necessarily the case that people use these steroids to become more attractive to a prospective partner - while I don't take anything like this I do work out, play sports and run - and this is more for my person health and satisfaction than to make myself attractive to anyone else. I think the broader point being made was that there's a lot of modern-day backlash from certain groups against a specific type of "gender affirming care" - and that it's worth remembering that such care is already relatively commonplace even if you may not think of it that way currently.
- ravenstine 3y ago
  Human behavior lies on a normal distribution, so the fact that some women take steroids doesn't detract from the motivations of the substantially larger portion of men who use them. > Plus it's not necessarily the case that people use these steroids to become more attractive to a prospective partner The word "necessary" is one you uttered. > while I don't take anything like this I do work out, play sports and run - and this is more for my person health and satisfaction than to make myself attractive to anyone else. What relevance does that have? Roids are a different set of tradeoffs from that of working out and playing sports. > I think the broader point being made was that there's a lot of modern-day backlash from certain groups against a specific type of "gender affirming care" - and that it's worth remembering that such care is already relatively commonplace even if you may not think of it that way currently. The backlash is not founded on the novelty of gender affirming care; it usually hinges on whether the form of gender affirming care that most people think of when they hear that term is medically sound in many cases and the push to normalize something that would otherwise be classified as a mental disorder. Some people are pushing back against the very concept of gender affirming care, yes, but the debate is way more complex than that. > and that it's worth remembering that such care is already relatively commonplace even if you may not think of it that way currently. Not everyone agrees that every form of "gender affirming care" is equivalent, or whether it needs to be overly intellectualized in such a manner. A modern westerner might be convinced that use of Rogaine should be classified as "gender affirming care" when, in reality, the proximal motivation for the vast majority of men using Rogaine is because they want to keep their hair.
jojobas 3y ago
Same could be said about "real gender affirming care". It's all this pesky society that won't take your word for anything.
anigbrowl 3y ago
Gay/bi youth are estimated to abuse steroids about 5-6 times as much as exclusively heterosexual boys. I don't know what % of the fitness community are gay, but it's A Lot, more so in the bodybuilding/powerlifting demographic vs general athletics. Hypermasculinity and homo/bisexuality have been culturally intertwined for millennia, the Iliad is centered on just such a relationship. EDIT: forgot the link to the study in question https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3934340/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3934340/
- smcl 3y ago
  This is an interesting find and explains why “ravenstine” has sort of disappeared from this thread, having asserted that this use of steroids is simply down to men wanting to impress women (then doubling down in it, and sprinkling in some anti-trans stuff in to boot)

pessimizer 3y ago

[flagged]

dang 3y ago
Please don't do this here.

mrits 3y ago

What gender? The result of steroids is beneficial to how most men and women would prefer to look. Leaner and more defined bodies.

pessimizer 3y ago
Both, then. Or all?

archsurface 3y ago

Are you sure? This is the UK (not US), where eg the Tavistock clinic was closed down.

pjc50 3y ago
Seems to be nothing to do with Tavistock, and transmasc people are (perhaps surprisingly) never mentioned in the article. The OP was making the point that "making your body conform to your gender" is also something that cis people can and do do. (By the time it was closed down the queues at the Tavistock were on the order of years, so lots of UK trans people have had to go private at some point)
- archsurface 3y ago
  Edit: deleted. This topic is too muddled.

dang 3y ago

"Eschew flamebait. Avoid generic tangents." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Edit: we already asked you once to stop posting unsubstantive comments and flamebait, and your account has unfortunately continued to do this. We end up having to ban such accounts because this is not what this site is for and destroys what it is for. I don't want to ban you, so if you'd please review the guidelines and stick to them, we'd appreciate it.

anigbrowl 3y ago
It's not flamebait. This perspective is widespread and discussed with nuance in the fitness community, and also in the medical community, eg https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37285414/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37285414/ It's in no way a controversial or baity observation.
- dang 3y ago
  In that case it needed more information to disambiguate from flamebait. Especially since the account has a history thereof.
  - anigbrowl 3y ago
    Have you considered the possibility that many people posting in this thread are sufficiently interested in physical culture to already know about this point of view? Anyone who reads weightlifting forums where steroids are likely to be discussed already encounters this idea on a daily basis. I get that it's a new concept for you, but your assumption was misplaced.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
  - zoklet-enjoyer 3y ago
    I didn't intend the comment to be taken that way. Also not sure what other comment I made that was considered flamebait. Maybe I missed that being called out or just forgot. Anyway, steroid use is gender affirming care. They're taken by men who perceive themselves as what society has generally considered a man and they want to emphasize those characteristics. I think it's interesting all the discussion lately of gender affirming care but barely see any discussion on cis/heterosexual people taking hormones and undergoing cosmetic procedures to emphasize those gendered physical characteristics. I think there are 4 groups of people who take hormones. 1. Those who take them for competitive advantage in sports 2. Those who take them because a doctor has told them that their body is producing less than it should be 3. Those who take them because they want the physical attributes that goes along with it because of how they identify 4. Biohackers All of those reasons are valid