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I don't think that making denigrating remarks about any group of people (even "tech bros") is a good way to start a talk. It signals to me that the speaker is m

I don't think that making denigrating remarks about any group of people (even "tech bros") is a good way to start a talk. It signals to me that the speaker is more interested in identity politics, pitting "us" against "them" because that's what seems to hold peoples' attention these days, rather than serious solutions.

deleted 3y ago
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camillomiller 3y ago
Yeah, that’s what a techbro would say
- corinroyal 3y ago
  LMFAO!
- tinideiznaimnou 3y ago
  And this, folks, is how you get techbros.
partomniscient 3y ago
Rushkoff often portrays himself as the counter-culture heroically wise anti-hero.
CaptainFever 3y ago
What even is a techbro anymore? At best, it seems to mean “person I dislike in tech”. At worst, it seems like anti-autism (e.g. “overly logical”).
- logicprog 3y ago
  It's not ableist to take issue with people who exclude qualitative considerations, especially considerations of human subjective experience and existence, from their reasoning. That's a very big and often dangerous flaw in reasoning that can cause a lot of problems, and that doesn't change even if autistic people have more of a tendency to fall into that sort of mistake. That just means it's a cognitive bias that's common for us just, like other cognitive biases (like e.g. the bandwagon fallacy) are more common for non-autistic people. Here's my definition btw: > it is a specific subset of the people who work in tech whose attitude towards tech is characterized by a sort of brash, prideful belief that you can solve everything with technological solutions and that the human (qualitative) factor of things just isn't relevant — or is even harmful because it's "unquantifiable" and it needs to be specifically perfected out of our considerations.
- anigbrowl 3y ago
  You're only looking at the Tech part. The Bro part is the unquestioning allegiance to optimization and capital maximization.
- wpietri 3y ago
  As an old-school nerd and non-neurotypical person, I think that's both wrong and insulting. I have never felt targeted by the term "tech bro". You could probably get at what people mean by it by starting with "person I dislike in tech" and asking exactly who they dislike and why. It's not because they write code. But if you want a cheat, TV Tropes has a pretty good explanation of how the tech bro stereotype differs from the average nerd: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TechBro https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TechBro
  - CaptainFever 3y ago
    That’s a good reference web page, thank you. It makes it much easier for me to understand what others mean by it in mainstream usage. I’ve unfortunately had some different life experiences of people using the term in other ways, dissimilar to the stereotype on TVTropes… or at least I perceived it as so.
- Qwertious 3y ago
  >At worst, it seems like anti-autism (e.g. “overly logical”). I think fundamentally it's a combination of 1) arrogance in thinking they understand how the world works socially (and are very capable of solving problems that are fundamentally social), and 2) a complete lack of understanding of how the world works socially. People hate them because at best they're idiots who achieve nothing and at worst their hardworking idiocy makes the world materially worse. In particular, techbros tend to have a belief that social problems can be solved with technological solutions (e.g. the solution to the housing crisis is to design a construction technique with lower material/labor costs). The problem in this instance is that if they asked themselves "what is the root cause of the problem", instead of jumping straight into the technology (they commonly "disrupt" old technology by ignoring some particular prevailing wisdom, and frame ignoring said wisdom as "not being closed-minded" instead of as "being stupid and ignoring the lessons of the past" - which, to be fair, is occasionally true). There's also a more explicitly political component, but saying "they have X politics which is stupid" is a great way to start a political flame-war so I think I'll skip that. So tl;dr: technosolutionism, plus overconfidence on trying to solve social problems that they don't even understand, let alone have the ability to solve.
logicprog 3y ago
I don't think that's true at all. You are taking classical liberal ideas to an absurd extreme — and far too literally — and it's handicapping your conceptual capabilities. It isn't necessarily identity politics to talk about groups of people, nor does it necessarily preclude discussing real solutions either — it depends on the relevancy of the group being mentioned. If the group being mentioned is a subculture or philosophical tendency or whatever the defining characteristics of which are relevant to the subject at hand, then it's perfectly fine to refer to such a group. It's only if you are bringing in groups that aren't actually relevant to a discussion, whose defining characteristics aren't provably related to the characteristic you are trying to apply to them, does talking about groups become a problematic thing. Barring that, being able to talk about groups of people that have different approaches or attitudes or beliefs or behaviors regarding a subject, even if it's to speak derogatorily about them, is basically necessary to have a functional discussion about certain topics whatsoever. In this case, we are having a discussion about attitudes towards technological solutions and technological progress, and one of the major cultures that influence discussions around that stuff and the direction things actually take are 'tech bros.' If we band the ability to speak about such a group that would just give them free reign to do anything they wanted without being criticized. To define the group, it is a specific subset of the people who work in tech whose attitude towards tech is characterized by a sort of brash, prideful belief that you can solve everything with technological solutions and that the human (qualitative) factor of things just isn't relevant — or is even harmful because it's "unquantifiable" and it needs to be specifically perfected out of our considerations. This is a real type of person and attitude in tech that we can discuss.
- freetime2 3y ago
  I really think you're going to bat too hard for the term "tech bros". The very term itself is derived from a stereotype, as per this definition from merriam webster: > bro - a young male who is part of a group of similar male friends stereotypically characterized as hearty, athletic, self-confident, party-loving, etc. Are there no women who have the same attitude towards tech that you ascribe to tech bros? Or older, unathletic, unconfident, or introverted men? I also don't think your definition is universal. As evidence you need look no further than a sibling comment to your own which implies that I am a tech bro even though I don't hold the beliefs/attitude in your definition (I believe that technological solutions do exist - but don't think they are the solution to every problem. I also think that qualitative human factors, like happiness, are very important indeed). I also disagree that this joke is as conducive to constructive conversation as you seem to think it is: > I don't necessarily like tech bros but I like talking with tech bros and at tech bros because they're easy to upset. The main way you upset them is by asserting either their humanity or everyone else's humanity. Is it constructive to take pleasure in "upsetting" people? If he were really out to change peoples' minds rather than simply preach to the choir, I think it would be more effective to adopt a more respectful tone towards people who disagree with him. > This is a real type of person and attitude in tech that we can discuss. Is it though? Can you give me an example of anyone who self-identifies as a tech bro according to your definition, let alone a enough people to call it a "major culture"? Or is it just a harmful stereotype that gets applied to people to discount their opinions instead of engaging with what they actually believe? Because my experience is that most people tend to hold more nuanced beliefs than what you are describing.
wpietri 3y ago
Ok? I guess don't start your talks that way then. But I think that's a very shallow understanding of "identity politics". Typically that's used to mean a deep or immutable characteristic. It's not like techbros come from Techbronistan or County Techbro, with deep cultural roots. Tech bros are dudes who chose to go into tech and choose a hypermasculine performance. And that performance, like the "frat bro" stereotype isn't just about their personal choices. It's about its impact on others, and their indifference to that impact. Which is also, not coincidentally, a major critique of the tech industry as a whole. If you really care about "serious solutions", maybe you could grapple with that, rather than performing offense right off the bat.
- freetime2 3y ago
  “Tech” refers to someone’s career, their livelihood. I would say that qualifies as a relatively deep and hard-to-change (though not immutable) characteristic. “Tech” also implies a certain socioeconomic status, since jobs in tech are often well compensated. For “bro”, I’ll use the definition from merriam webster that I used elsewhere: “a young male who is part of a group of similar male friends stereotypically characterized as hearty, athletic, self-confident, party-loving, etc.” So they are “male”, and “young” - that’s two immutable characteristics. If this is about behavior, then why mix in aspects of gender, age, and profession? And the problem of course is that it’s very easy to see a person with the above three traits and assume they think or behave a certain way - i.e stereotyping. And since we’re talking about gender, age, and socioeconomic status - I think the term identity politics is applicable.
  - wpietri 3y ago
    > If this is about behavior, then why mix in aspects of gender, age, and profession This is such a good example of why technical degrees need stronger humanities requirements. Why indeed?
    - freetime2 3y ago
      I don't follow. Can you elaborate?

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

camillomiller 3y ago

Yeah, that’s what a techbro would say

corinroyal 3y ago
LMFAO!
tinideiznaimnou 3y ago
And this, folks, is how you get techbros.

partomniscient 3y ago

Rushkoff often portrays himself as the counter-culture heroically wise anti-hero.

CaptainFever 3y ago

What even is a techbro anymore? At best, it seems to mean “person I dislike in tech”. At worst, it seems like anti-autism (e.g. “overly logical”).

logicprog 3y ago
It's not ableist to take issue with people who exclude qualitative considerations, especially considerations of human subjective experience and existence, from their reasoning. That's a very big and often dangerous flaw in reasoning that can cause a lot of problems, and that doesn't change even if autistic people have more of a tendency to fall into that sort of mistake. That just means it's a cognitive bias that's common for us just, like other cognitive biases (like e.g. the bandwagon fallacy) are more common for non-autistic people. Here's my definition btw: > it is a specific subset of the people who work in tech whose attitude towards tech is characterized by a sort of brash, prideful belief that you can solve everything with technological solutions and that the human (qualitative) factor of things just isn't relevant — or is even harmful because it's "unquantifiable" and it needs to be specifically perfected out of our considerations.
anigbrowl 3y ago
You're only looking at the Tech part. The Bro part is the unquestioning allegiance to optimization and capital maximization.
wpietri 3y ago
As an old-school nerd and non-neurotypical person, I think that's both wrong and insulting. I have never felt targeted by the term "tech bro". You could probably get at what people mean by it by starting with "person I dislike in tech" and asking exactly who they dislike and why. It's not because they write code. But if you want a cheat, TV Tropes has a pretty good explanation of how the tech bro stereotype differs from the average nerd: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TechBro https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TechBro
- CaptainFever 3y ago
  That’s a good reference web page, thank you. It makes it much easier for me to understand what others mean by it in mainstream usage. I’ve unfortunately had some different life experiences of people using the term in other ways, dissimilar to the stereotype on TVTropes… or at least I perceived it as so.
Qwertious 3y ago
>At worst, it seems like anti-autism (e.g. “overly logical”). I think fundamentally it's a combination of 1) arrogance in thinking they understand how the world works socially (and are very capable of solving problems that are fundamentally social), and 2) a complete lack of understanding of how the world works socially. People hate them because at best they're idiots who achieve nothing and at worst their hardworking idiocy makes the world materially worse. In particular, techbros tend to have a belief that social problems can be solved with technological solutions (e.g. the solution to the housing crisis is to design a construction technique with lower material/labor costs). The problem in this instance is that if they asked themselves "what is the root cause of the problem", instead of jumping straight into the technology (they commonly "disrupt" old technology by ignoring some particular prevailing wisdom, and frame ignoring said wisdom as "not being closed-minded" instead of as "being stupid and ignoring the lessons of the past" - which, to be fair, is occasionally true). There's also a more explicitly political component, but saying "they have X politics which is stupid" is a great way to start a political flame-war so I think I'll skip that. So tl;dr: technosolutionism, plus overconfidence on trying to solve social problems that they don't even understand, let alone have the ability to solve.

logicprog 3y ago

I don't think that's true at all. You are taking classical liberal ideas to an absurd extreme — and far too literally — and it's handicapping your conceptual capabilities. It isn't necessarily identity politics to talk about groups of people, nor does it necessarily preclude discussing real solutions either — it depends on the relevancy of the group being mentioned. If the group being mentioned is a subculture or philosophical tendency or whatever the defining characteristics of which are relevant to the subject at hand, then it's perfectly fine to refer to such a group. It's only if you are bringing in groups that aren't actually relevant to a discussion, whose defining characteristics aren't provably related to the characteristic you are trying to apply to them, does talking about groups become a problematic thing. Barring that, being able to talk about groups of people that have different approaches or attitudes or beliefs or behaviors regarding a subject, even if it's to speak derogatorily about them, is basically necessary to have a functional discussion about certain topics whatsoever. In this case, we are having a discussion about attitudes towards technological solutions and technological progress, and one of the major cultures that influence discussions around that stuff and the direction things actually take are 'tech bros.' If we band the ability to speak about such a group that would just give them free reign to do anything they wanted without being criticized. To define the group, it is a specific subset of the people who work in tech whose attitude towards tech is characterized by a sort of brash, prideful belief that you can solve everything with technological solutions and that the human (qualitative) factor of things just isn't relevant — or is even harmful because it's "unquantifiable" and it needs to be specifically perfected out of our considerations. This is a real type of person and attitude in tech that we can discuss.

freetime2 3y ago
I really think you're going to bat too hard for the term "tech bros". The very term itself is derived from a stereotype, as per this definition from merriam webster: > bro - a young male who is part of a group of similar male friends stereotypically characterized as hearty, athletic, self-confident, party-loving, etc. Are there no women who have the same attitude towards tech that you ascribe to tech bros? Or older, unathletic, unconfident, or introverted men? I also don't think your definition is universal. As evidence you need look no further than a sibling comment to your own which implies that I am a tech bro even though I don't hold the beliefs/attitude in your definition (I believe that technological solutions do exist - but don't think they are the solution to every problem. I also think that qualitative human factors, like happiness, are very important indeed). I also disagree that this joke is as conducive to constructive conversation as you seem to think it is: > I don't necessarily like tech bros but I like talking with tech bros and at tech bros because they're easy to upset. The main way you upset them is by asserting either their humanity or everyone else's humanity. Is it constructive to take pleasure in "upsetting" people? If he were really out to change peoples' minds rather than simply preach to the choir, I think it would be more effective to adopt a more respectful tone towards people who disagree with him. > This is a real type of person and attitude in tech that we can discuss. Is it though? Can you give me an example of anyone who self-identifies as a tech bro according to your definition, let alone a enough people to call it a "major culture"? Or is it just a harmful stereotype that gets applied to people to discount their opinions instead of engaging with what they actually believe? Because my experience is that most people tend to hold more nuanced beliefs than what you are describing.

wpietri 3y ago

Ok? I guess don't start your talks that way then. But I think that's a very shallow understanding of "identity politics". Typically that's used to mean a deep or immutable characteristic. It's not like techbros come from Techbronistan or County Techbro, with deep cultural roots. Tech bros are dudes who chose to go into tech and choose a hypermasculine performance. And that performance, like the "frat bro" stereotype isn't just about their personal choices. It's about its impact on others, and their indifference to that impact. Which is also, not coincidentally, a major critique of the tech industry as a whole. If you really care about "serious solutions", maybe you could grapple with that, rather than performing offense right off the bat.

freetime2 3y ago
“Tech” refers to someone’s career, their livelihood. I would say that qualifies as a relatively deep and hard-to-change (though not immutable) characteristic. “Tech” also implies a certain socioeconomic status, since jobs in tech are often well compensated. For “bro”, I’ll use the definition from merriam webster that I used elsewhere: “a young male who is part of a group of similar male friends stereotypically characterized as hearty, athletic, self-confident, party-loving, etc.” So they are “male”, and “young” - that’s two immutable characteristics. If this is about behavior, then why mix in aspects of gender, age, and profession? And the problem of course is that it’s very easy to see a person with the above three traits and assume they think or behave a certain way - i.e stereotyping. And since we’re talking about gender, age, and socioeconomic status - I think the term identity politics is applicable.
- wpietri 3y ago
  > If this is about behavior, then why mix in aspects of gender, age, and profession This is such a good example of why technical degrees need stronger humanities requirements. Why indeed?
  - freetime2 3y ago
    I don't follow. Can you elaborate?