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I'm assuming the "by the Bluebook" implementation they're referring to is this: https://github.com/devhawala/ST80 https://github.com/devhawala/ST80 It's nice t
by koito17 3y ago
I'm assuming the "by the Bluebook" implementation they're referring to is this: https://github.com/devhawala/ST80 https://github.com/devhawala/ST80
It's nice to use, but awkward because almost nobody has a three-button mouse laying around. One of the cool things about the Blue Book is that it lays out exactly how to implement e.g. graphics primitives and even the object system itself. In fact, the implementation I linked above uses the exact implementation of these things as outlined in the Blue Book, just written in Java.
> The first thing is that the Smalltalk environment wasn't really an operating system the same way something like Mac OS was. It’s more like an IDE that runs on bare hardware.
I disagree with this. It is an operating system. Just because it doesn't have barriers like a kernel and doesn't treat debuggers as third-class citizens doesn't make it any less of an operating system. It just makes it "not Unix". Lisp machines were also very similar in this regard: there is no "system" in the Unix sense: your compiler, debugger, and runtime were a whole unit and that is what you booted into.
> The Smalltalk environment was a revolutionary GUI, but it was still a system you would have had to have been a computer operator or something to really use.
Probably true. But I'd also like to mention the images in the GitHub link I posted are very early snapshots of Smalltalk-80 and may lack any features that were added later. More importantly, the author is missing that these machines came with a manual that likely described how to use the interface. But I do have have to concede: these machines were extremely expensive and definitely not targetted towards "everyday people", but can we even say the same about the Lisa? I know the Macintosh was definitely designed for everyday people, but the Lisa was pretty expensive even for its time, and many attribute its commercial failure to this.
- jonhohle 3y ago> almost nobody has a three-button mouse laying around With the exception of a trackpad or Magic Mouse (or whatever Apple calls it), doesn’t everyone using a mouse have a three button mouse? Is the scroll-wheel click no longer used as middle click by default? Even Apple’s best mouse, the Mighty Mouse, can middle click.
- gumby 3y agoThe apple trackpads support multi-finger clicks and swipes, though of course the chording is different (you can’t simply press the “middle” button by itself).
- jonhohle 3y agoSince OP was talking about mice, I wanted to differentiate from trackpads. Maybe people don’t use mice anymore and I’m just out of the loop (though my 12yo uses a mouse with his iPad) or maybe OP is thinking of pre-scrollwheel three button mice.
- linguae 3y agoI've faced similar issues when trying Plan 9, which assumes a three-button mouse and makes heavy use of mouse chording. I had difficulties using my normal mouse wheel USB mice. I ended up purchasing some old Sun USB three-button mice for experimenting with Plan 9.
- lproven 3y ago> I had difficulties using my normal mouse wheel USB mice. Weird. I do this dozens of times an hour on mine, no problem.
- lproven 3y agoNot by default, they don't. I recently got a Macbook from work, an M1 running the latest macOS, and there is no middle-click. There is no built-in function to enable it, either. This being the Mac world, there's a well-known commercial tool to provide it: https://middleclick.app/ https://middleclick.app/ I found a FOSS equivalent: https://github.com/artginzburg/MiddleClick-Ventura https://github.com/artginzburg/MiddleClick-Ventura
- freeone3000 3y agoHolding down a middle click on a wheel is moderately awkward. Grabbing a mouse with a few more buttons and binding one to “middle” click is much nicer.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- GeekyBear 3y ago> the Lisa was pretty expensive even for its time, and many attribute its commercial failure to this. A Lisa was about $10,000. The Alto wasn't for sale to the public, but it's successor, the Xerox Star was. A Xerox Star "starter kit" was about $75,000, and included a workstation for end user use, a workstation to act as a file, print and mail server, and a laser printer all networked together. Once you bought the "starter kit" you could get additional workstations for $16,000. There was a recently linked blog post about restoring an HP workstation from the same era that retailed for $25,000. https://hackaday.com/2023/06/20/repairing-a-25000-hp-workstation-to-run-pac-man/ https://hackaday.com/2023/06/20/repairing-a-25000-hp-worksta...
- Rochus 3y ago> I'm assuming the "by the Bluebook" implementation they're referring to is this: Or this: https://github.com/rochus-keller/Smalltalk/ https://github.com/rochus-keller/Smalltalk/
- igouy 3y agoOr this: https://rmod-files.lille.inria.fr/FreeBooks/BlueBook/Bluebook.pdf https://rmod-files.lille.inria.fr/FreeBooks/BlueBook/Blueboo...
- wslh 3y ago>> The first thing is that the Smalltalk environment wasn't really an operating system the same way something like Mac OS was. It’s more like an IDE that runs on bare hardware. > I disagree with this... Totally, the idea of something like an OS is there, even if it was not implemented by the definition. If the author wants to to deep inside of the OS ideas and Smalltalk it can follow the following links, when even TCP/IP is implemented in Smalltalk: [1] [2]. [1] http://squeaknos.blogspot.com/ http://squeaknos.blogspot.com/ [2] http://swain.webframe.org/squeak/floppy/ http://swain.webframe.org/squeak/floppy/