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> Try writing any JS without a bundler that uses package.json. I have, and I continue to. It's not hard. To give one example: Firefox, a serious desktop appl

by cxr 3y ago

> Try writing any JS without a bundler that uses package.json. I have, and I continue to. It's not hard. To give one example: Firefox, a serious desktop application by any measure, was written in JS from the very beginning. (Yes, really. A combination of JS and C++, at least—and, nowadays, Rust, too; not unlike the way that Emacs is written in Lisp, where that means a combination of Lisp around its C core.) That's hundreds of thousands of lines of JS we're talking about, and it predates Node and all of the bundler/package.json stuff that you are implicitly arguing is somehow unavoidable. Firefox is an existence proof that that's not true (and also happens to be a higher quality app than anything I've ever seen the Node community offer as example to serve as testaments to their methodology, including anything to do with Electron, which cribs the same Greenspun, Emacs-style architecture that's behind Firefox). I worked on the JS docs on developer.mozilla.org in the early days of the site. (Also before Node ever existed.) I did this because I wanted people to understand JS. It's a much nicer—and more thoughtfully designed—language than it gets credit for. It pains me, therefore, when I see people refer things as JS when what they should be saying is "stuff associated with the kind of software of dubious quality that developers who decided to rally around NPM have been putting out into the world for the last decade—and more often than not actually goes against the natural grain and spirit of the language".

idoubtit 3y ago
> I have, and I continue to. It's not hard. I also write JavaScript code without NodeJS and package.json. It's not hard when the code is simple. But it doesn't scale. For a complex code, I want a linter, I want automated tests and coverage, I want to split the source code over many files... NodeJS is the standard requirement for all of these. > Firefox, a serious desktop application by any measure, was written in JS from the very beginning. (Yes, really. A combination of JS and C++, at least At the very beginning, this web browser started under the name "Netscape", and JavaScript didn't exist yet. Mozilla forked out of Netscape in 1998, and there was little JS in the source code at this time. > it predates Node and all of the bundler/package.json stuff that you are implicitly arguing is somehow unavoidable. Firefox doesn't use the standard bundlers of the Node ecosystem, but it's because it has its own build systems and bundlers. It's a beast that needs 30GB of disk to compile, with a custom build system written in shell, Perl and mostly Python, with many tests systems (including for "mochitest" JS code). For instance, among the dozen of linters that Firefox uses, there is eslint, which a normal JS project would install through a package.json. > JS. It's a much nicer—and more thoughtfully designed—language than it gets credit for. JS was notoriously designed and implemented in a rush, because Netscape was under pressure from Microsoft. It also suffered from legal constraints that block the adoption of some Java concepts. Once LiveScript/JavaScript was born, its evolution was chaotic since the browsers war prevented any consistent progress of the language. After it settled, Ecmascript did enhance the language at a fast pace, but it cannot fix the many inconsistencies and design flaws.
- cxr 3y ago
  > At the very beginning, this web browser started under the name "Netscape", and JavaScript didn't exist yet. Mozilla forked out of Netscape in 1998, and there was little JS in the source code at this time. I have no idea what point you are trying to make here. Firefox—not Netscape—has been a JS-driven app since its very first day of existence. (Netscape Navigator 6.x, which has nothing to do with Netscape of the early-to-mid 90s, is the same way—but that's beside the point: I said Firefox, and that's what we're talking about.) > Firefox doesn't use the standard bundlers of the Node ecosystem, but it's because it has its own build systems and bundlers. It's a beast that needs 30GB of disk to compile, with a custom build system written in shell, Perl and mostly Python, with many tests systems (including for "mochitest" JS code). I don't know what Firefox's build system looks like now, but at the time that Node debuted (2009), Firefox 3 was the latest release, with Firefox 4 development underway. It did have (and always had) a pretty gnarly build system made of shell scripts, Perl, autotools, et cetera... the same as almost anything that involved reliably compiling a large project with C/C++ across many distros (not to mention other platforms), which was the entire reason behind it. The use of JavaScript, however, had nothing to do with that; there were no JS bundlers. You brought symbols in scope by adding a script element. You still can. This is also how WebKit's inspector is written to this day, last I checked (~6 months ago or so). > JS was notoriously designed and implemented in a rush Again, no idea what point you're trying to make here. JavaScript was done in a rush. It's also thoughtfully designed—certainly more than it gets credit for—and more than other languages that had more time (and less of an excuse). And it remains pretty nice, popular misconceptions notwithstanding (and not helped by self-loathing/self-sabotaging developers from the GitHub era like the author of the submitted article). > But it doesn't scale. For a complex code, I want a linter, I want automated tests and coverage, I want to split the source code over many files... NodeJS is the standard requirement for all of these. Hard to cover this succinctly given how much weird stuff is packed in here. Hundreds of thousands of lines of code of higher quality (and subject to harsher requirements) than the Node fanclub has ever produced is proof that JS scales. Testing is a basic engineering concern and common across the industry and across all languages. It's a completely orthogonal issue. Lint as much as you like if that's what you want. Neither Node nor the Node way of development are in any sense a requirement. For having source code "split [...] over many files", whether you use Node or not (or follow their fads) is neither here nor there...

by cxr 3y ago

idoubtit 3y ago

> I have, and I continue to. It's not hard. I also write JavaScript code without NodeJS and package.json. It's not hard when the code is simple. But it doesn't scale. For a complex code, I want a linter, I want automated tests and coverage, I want to split the source code over many files... NodeJS is the standard requirement for all of these. > Firefox, a serious desktop application by any measure, was written in JS from the very beginning. (Yes, really. A combination of JS and C++, at least At the very beginning, this web browser started under the name "Netscape", and JavaScript didn't exist yet. Mozilla forked out of Netscape in 1998, and there was little JS in the source code at this time. > it predates Node and all of the bundler/package.json stuff that you are implicitly arguing is somehow unavoidable. Firefox doesn't use the standard bundlers of the Node ecosystem, but it's because it has its own build systems and bundlers. It's a beast that needs 30GB of disk to compile, with a custom build system written in shell, Perl and mostly Python, with many tests systems (including for "mochitest" JS code). For instance, among the dozen of linters that Firefox uses, there is eslint, which a normal JS project would install through a package.json. > JS. It's a much nicer—and more thoughtfully designed—language than it gets credit for. JS was notoriously designed and implemented in a rush, because Netscape was under pressure from Microsoft. It also suffered from legal constraints that block the adoption of some Java concepts. Once LiveScript/JavaScript was born, its evolution was chaotic since the browsers war prevented any consistent progress of the language. After it settled, Ecmascript did enhance the language at a fast pace, but it cannot fix the many inconsistencies and design flaws.

cxr 3y ago
> At the very beginning, this web browser started under the name "Netscape", and JavaScript didn't exist yet. Mozilla forked out of Netscape in 1998, and there was little JS in the source code at this time. I have no idea what point you are trying to make here. Firefox—not Netscape—has been a JS-driven app since its very first day of existence. (Netscape Navigator 6.x, which has nothing to do with Netscape of the early-to-mid 90s, is the same way—but that's beside the point: I said Firefox, and that's what we're talking about.) > Firefox doesn't use the standard bundlers of the Node ecosystem, but it's because it has its own build systems and bundlers. It's a beast that needs 30GB of disk to compile, with a custom build system written in shell, Perl and mostly Python, with many tests systems (including for "mochitest" JS code). I don't know what Firefox's build system looks like now, but at the time that Node debuted (2009), Firefox 3 was the latest release, with Firefox 4 development underway. It did have (and always had) a pretty gnarly build system made of shell scripts, Perl, autotools, et cetera... the same as almost anything that involved reliably compiling a large project with C/C++ across many distros (not to mention other platforms), which was the entire reason behind it. The use of JavaScript, however, had nothing to do with that; there were no JS bundlers. You brought symbols in scope by adding a script element. You still can. This is also how WebKit's inspector is written to this day, last I checked (~6 months ago or so). > JS was notoriously designed and implemented in a rush Again, no idea what point you're trying to make here. JavaScript was done in a rush. It's also thoughtfully designed—certainly more than it gets credit for—and more than other languages that had more time (and less of an excuse). And it remains pretty nice, popular misconceptions notwithstanding (and not helped by self-loathing/self-sabotaging developers from the GitHub era like the author of the submitted article). > But it doesn't scale. For a complex code, I want a linter, I want automated tests and coverage, I want to split the source code over many files... NodeJS is the standard requirement for all of these. Hard to cover this succinctly given how much weird stuff is packed in here. Hundreds of thousands of lines of code of higher quality (and subject to harsher requirements) than the Node fanclub has ever produced is proof that JS scales. Testing is a basic engineering concern and common across the industry and across all languages. It's a completely orthogonal issue. Lint as much as you like if that's what you want. Neither Node nor the Node way of development are in any sense a requirement. For having source code "split [...] over many files", whether you use Node or not (or follow their fads) is neither here nor there...