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I appreciate the playful tone, it's good to be reminded of these pain points after the first few layers of skin and nerve endings have burned away. On the flip

by quxbar 3y ago

I appreciate the playful tone, it's good to be reminded of these pain points after the first few layers of skin and nerve endings have burned away. On the flip side, I can throw a hungry junior dev with a new macbook into the deep end, and they can be productive within a day. They don't have to know anything about containers, .net, nginx, or the top 100 most common command line tools. When they hit an issue they can just google it.

dfsafklsjv 3y ago
> When they hit an issue they can just google it. Now they chatgpt it.
- jszymborski 3y ago
  And get unreliable results from a stochastic parrot
  - voz_ 3y ago
    I regularly find chatgpt to be better than googling for code related stuffs.
    - jszymborski 3y ago
      I think that speaks more to how much Google search result quality has plummeted over the years more than its suitability for the task. > regularly The trouble lies in the credible sounding results that are in fact subtly (or less subtly) nonsense. It's a bit like old W3schools but instead of poor practices, its authors were half-in-the-bag
      - voz_ 3y ago
        I’ve no problem distilling those! I find stackoverflow and co to be of worse signal:noise
  - logicallee 3y ago
    Edit: this is getting a lot of downvotes but it is important information. ChatGPT with GPT 4 ($20/month) is an artificial intelligence that can save hours of your time and help you debug things you couldn’t without it. It really understands code. While I will take a 4 point karma hit from downvoters who don’t know how to use ChatGPT, this information is very important to share with all programmers. >stochastic parrot This is incorrect. In the context of learning JavaScript, ChatGPT with GPT 4 ($20/month) can analyze any error if you give it the error and the code, or you can just describe what’s wrong and give it the code you wrote and it will analyze it and tell you how to correct it, even if your code is the first time anyone has done that. It might take it two tries but it’ll figure it out. It obviously understands what you tell it and follows your instructions pretty well. Limitations: the code you give it has to be small; ChatGPT doesn’t scale to larger codebases. Second limitation: if you happen to be a world expert in something, then it might have trouble understanding - haha, just kidding: if you are the best human expert in the world, ChatGPT is still smarter than you and can still fix errors you can’t fix. Rather than a stochastic parrot, it’s the best debugger on the planet. In fairness you are correct that ChatGPT is unreliable.
    - logicallee 3y ago
      [flagged]
cjohnson318 3y ago
At which point they'll spend the next day or three smushing something together that they'll regret for the next ten years, and then write something like this. The cycle continues.
jasonkester 3y ago
On the flip side, I can throw a hungry junior dev with a new macbook into the deep end, and they can be productive within a day. Indeed. The irony is that the trade off you’ve made means that you can throw a senior dev with 20 years of experience building things that run in browsers, and he wont be up and running in a day. He’ll be fighting all the unnecessary layers of complexity to modify this ship-in-a-bottle with the fiddly tools provided, knowing that he could have built the entire ship in a few days if he could just touch the thing with his hands. At least that’s what I feel like dropping into Modern Frontend gigs after sprinting along on my own projects that use javascript, html and css.
- zelphirkalt 3y ago
  Add to that any traditional server side template rendering like Jinja or Django templates, and you can implement probably 90% of today's SPAs in simpler terms and actually working browser staples like the back and forth buttons.
  - agos 3y ago
    yet the devil lies in that last 10%
- golergka 3y ago
  If your project doesn't actually need anything more complex than basic JS, html and css, you don't need those layers of complexity: you can create a new package.json based project and be productive in 5 minutes. However, if you are thrown into an existing projects that does have all of these things, it's usually because they're actually necessary.
  - lylejantzi3rd 3y ago
    > However, if you are thrown into an existing projects that does have all of these things, it's usually because they're actually necessary. That is almost never true.
    - 3y ago
otikik 3y ago
The juniors I know will go: “Let me create a framework to handle this complexity” Blissfully unaware that it would take them months to write that, and it would be obsolete the next day, because part of the problem is too many frameworks.

by quxbar 3y ago

dfsafklsjv 3y ago

> When they hit an issue they can just google it. Now they chatgpt it.

jszymborski 3y ago
And get unreliable results from a stochastic parrot
- voz_ 3y ago
  I regularly find chatgpt to be better than googling for code related stuffs.
  - jszymborski 3y ago
    I think that speaks more to how much Google search result quality has plummeted over the years more than its suitability for the task. > regularly The trouble lies in the credible sounding results that are in fact subtly (or less subtly) nonsense. It's a bit like old W3schools but instead of poor practices, its authors were half-in-the-bag
    - voz_ 3y ago
      I’ve no problem distilling those! I find stackoverflow and co to be of worse signal:noise
- logicallee 3y ago
  Edit: this is getting a lot of downvotes but it is important information. ChatGPT with GPT 4 ($20/month) is an artificial intelligence that can save hours of your time and help you debug things you couldn’t without it. It really understands code. While I will take a 4 point karma hit from downvoters who don’t know how to use ChatGPT, this information is very important to share with all programmers. >stochastic parrot This is incorrect. In the context of learning JavaScript, ChatGPT with GPT 4 ($20/month) can analyze any error if you give it the error and the code, or you can just describe what’s wrong and give it the code you wrote and it will analyze it and tell you how to correct it, even if your code is the first time anyone has done that. It might take it two tries but it’ll figure it out. It obviously understands what you tell it and follows your instructions pretty well. Limitations: the code you give it has to be small; ChatGPT doesn’t scale to larger codebases. Second limitation: if you happen to be a world expert in something, then it might have trouble understanding - haha, just kidding: if you are the best human expert in the world, ChatGPT is still smarter than you and can still fix errors you can’t fix. Rather than a stochastic parrot, it’s the best debugger on the planet. In fairness you are correct that ChatGPT is unreliable.
  - logicallee 3y ago
    [flagged]

cjohnson318 3y ago

At which point they'll spend the next day or three smushing something together that they'll regret for the next ten years, and then write something like this. The cycle continues.

jasonkester 3y ago

On the flip side, I can throw a hungry junior dev with a new macbook into the deep end, and they can be productive within a day. Indeed. The irony is that the trade off you’ve made means that you can throw a senior dev with 20 years of experience building things that run in browsers, and he wont be up and running in a day. He’ll be fighting all the unnecessary layers of complexity to modify this ship-in-a-bottle with the fiddly tools provided, knowing that he could have built the entire ship in a few days if he could just touch the thing with his hands. At least that’s what I feel like dropping into Modern Frontend gigs after sprinting along on my own projects that use javascript, html and css.

zelphirkalt 3y ago
Add to that any traditional server side template rendering like Jinja or Django templates, and you can implement probably 90% of today's SPAs in simpler terms and actually working browser staples like the back and forth buttons.
- agos 3y ago
  yet the devil lies in that last 10%
golergka 3y ago
If your project doesn't actually need anything more complex than basic JS, html and css, you don't need those layers of complexity: you can create a new package.json based project and be productive in 5 minutes. However, if you are thrown into an existing projects that does have all of these things, it's usually because they're actually necessary.
- lylejantzi3rd 3y ago
  > However, if you are thrown into an existing projects that does have all of these things, it's usually because they're actually necessary. That is almost never true.
  - 3y ago

otikik 3y ago

The juniors I know will go: “Let me create a framework to handle this complexity” Blissfully unaware that it would take them months to write that, and it would be obsolete the next day, because part of the problem is too many frameworks.