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I agree with all of this, but it's really depressing to me that even somebody like Mironov just takes this as a given: "Companies, especially executive teams, c

I agree with all of this, but it's really depressing to me that even somebody like Mironov just takes this as a given: "Companies, especially executive teams, can generate a lot of chaos: 'small' interrupts, sudden shifts, cross-functional blame, budget jousting". Like, I get that the toddler executive is the predominant worker experience under managerialist capitalism. And I get that is the consequence of entrenched ideologies and power structures. But I would like for more people to start leavening their "here is how you survive in a terrible system" advice with at least an occasional suggestion that this how things are in this historical moment. And ideally some ideas on how to start tilting things toward some saner future.

richmironov1 3y ago
My experience is that some execs, some of the time, can reduce the chaos and give teams the running room/decision authority needed to do great work. (I've both failed and succeeded at it.) Part of this post was to encourage my peers to step up. Depending on ICs to push cultural change up through the org isn't IMHO a reasonable strategy.
- wpietri 3y ago
  Thanks for the reply. Yes, I agree that some execs can occasionally do better. I have even sometimes been that executive. I also agree with this as stated: > Depending on ICs to push cultural change up through the org isn't IMHO a reasonable strategy. But I think the world is bigger than that. My point is there are more possibilities than "hope for an exec who works in contradiction to the dominant paradigm" and "expect lone ICs to change things". Just as an example, those weren't big factors in getting us the 40-hour work week.
Hermitian909 3y ago
> managerialist capitalism I think the term of art you're looking for is actually "command and control structure". This exact phenomenon appeared under communist regimes as well and is not unique to capitalism. If you're interested in a real world example of an alternative structure read up on the corporation Mondragon - it's better but even large coops are not completely immune to this problem. Modern businesses appear to have an inherent need to focus large groups of people towards a singular vision and it's quite difficult to avoid the "toddler manager" effect.
- wpietri 3y ago
  I get HNers often thrive on being the smart guy, so I get the urge to correct. But that only is tolerable when you're actually right. Try occasionally assuming that the person you're talking to know what you are about to mention and still said what they said on purpose. In particular, you don't seem to have any understanding of what managerialism is or why I am talking about it specifically here. And there's nothing you mention here that I haven't been familiar with for at least a decade. So no, I am not looking for that term.

richmironov1 3y ago

My experience is that some execs, some of the time, can reduce the chaos and give teams the running room/decision authority needed to do great work. (I've both failed and succeeded at it.) Part of this post was to encourage my peers to step up. Depending on ICs to push cultural change up through the org isn't IMHO a reasonable strategy.

wpietri 3y ago
Thanks for the reply. Yes, I agree that some execs can occasionally do better. I have even sometimes been that executive. I also agree with this as stated: > Depending on ICs to push cultural change up through the org isn't IMHO a reasonable strategy. But I think the world is bigger than that. My point is there are more possibilities than "hope for an exec who works in contradiction to the dominant paradigm" and "expect lone ICs to change things". Just as an example, those weren't big factors in getting us the 40-hour work week.

Hermitian909 3y ago

> managerialist capitalism I think the term of art you're looking for is actually "command and control structure". This exact phenomenon appeared under communist regimes as well and is not unique to capitalism. If you're interested in a real world example of an alternative structure read up on the corporation Mondragon - it's better but even large coops are not completely immune to this problem. Modern businesses appear to have an inherent need to focus large groups of people towards a singular vision and it's quite difficult to avoid the "toddler manager" effect.

wpietri 3y ago
I get HNers often thrive on being the smart guy, so I get the urge to correct. But that only is tolerable when you're actually right. Try occasionally assuming that the person you're talking to know what you are about to mention and still said what they said on purpose. In particular, you don't seem to have any understanding of what managerialism is or why I am talking about it specifically here. And there's nothing you mention here that I haven't been familiar with for at least a decade. So no, I am not looking for that term.