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So what does this mean? Someone produced too much electricity, and the network had to find a way to get rid of it, so they were willing to pay consumers to take

So what does this mean? Someone produced too much electricity, and the network had to find a way to get rid of it, so they were willing to pay consumers to take it? Makes sense. So now my question is, consumers aren't looking at electricity price in real time[1], so making negative isn't going to get consumers to consume more. So what's the point of making it negative? It's not gonna help you achieve your goal of getting rid of it. [1] Marje we're going negative!, get the extra kettles out of storage!

yanellena 3y ago
I can only speak for myself but I've rearranged a few household jobs to take advantage of the negative prices today. I'm not going to miss an opportunity to be paid to use energy.
- hsjqllzlfkf 3y ago
  What, do you normally have electricity prices streamed to your phone or something?
kybernetikos 3y ago
I'm not actually doing this as I don't currently have access to negative prices, but I do have a battery in my home, so at least in theory it would be possible for me to charge during negative price times to use the power for peak times. Even better would be to charge my electric car during these times. This does highlight the fact that we need smarter / more configurable home systems, since the decisions about what to do with solar / grid / battery / car can get fairly complex.
rcxdude 3y ago
people with battery systems or EVs are, or at least the batteries usually are: this provider has integrations with most home batteries. Storage heaters are another potential sink, though less useful this time of year.
- implements 3y ago
  If you’ve still got an insulated hot water tank with an electric immersion heater just dump excess solar generated electricity into that - you can always treat yourself to a good soak in hot bath!
krona 3y ago
Pumped-storage hydroelectric power generators (e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinorwig_Power_Station https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinorwig_Power_Station) use cheaper prices to pump water up mountains.
eternityforest 3y ago
Presumably industrial consumers are looking at pricing and will decide to smelt more aluminum or something when it's cheap.
- mchannon 3y ago
  Aluminum smelting isn’t all that dispatchable. During times of crisis, it can be idled, but the reduction units aren’t designed to turn on and off subject to the whims of the market- capital equipment and labor to run it aren’t going to work at a 10 percent duty factor.
zokier 3y ago
idk about uk but around here spot prices are released on the previous day. that is enough time to allow scheduling your day to run eg laundry or dishwasher during best hours, or at least off-peak.
jdietrich 3y ago
The inputs and outputs of the grid need to be balanced. A large proportion of the UK's grid inputs come from renewables - wind and solar - that can't easily be controlled. That's leading to increased supply volatility and so increased price volatility, which in extremis results in (previously unheard-of) negative prices. Consumers aren't looking at prices in real time, but industrial users are. Let's say that you run a large cold storage facility. You need to maintain temperatures within a safe range, but that gives you some responsiveness to real-time prices - you could push towards the low end of that range when prices are low, or drift up to the high end of that range when prices are high. In effect, you're using the temperature of your warehouse as an energy storage system. The same would apply to many industrial processes that involve heating, cooling or pressurised fluid. As we transition towards 100% sustainable energy, we hope to exploit much more of these non-obvious sources of energy storage through dynamic pricing and smart appliances. If you charge your electric car overnight, you don't actually care when it draws energy from the grid as long as your battery is full in the morning. A smart charger could wait until prices are low in the dead of night, or even feed back some energy to the grid during the early evening. You probably won't notice if your air conditioner or your heating drifts beyond the set temperature by half a degree, but the grid most certainly will notice millions of smart thermostats that can reduce grid demand during brief peaks.
- hsjqllzlfkf 3y ago
  > Consumers aren't looking at prices in real time, but industrial users are. The headline says retail though.
robin_reala 3y ago
I’m looking at it in real-time, and my provider sends me a notification if price drops below a certain threshold. So things like charging the car or bothering to run a pyrolytic clean of the oven definitely happen in these circumstances.
- hsjqllzlfkf 3y ago
  How much does it cost to charge your car from 0 to 100% at the average price?
  - robin_reala 3y ago
    The prices I’ve seen over the last year range from –US$0.05 to to US$0.88 per kWh depending on what’s happening with the supply. So there’s really no average, it depends completely on timing. But worst case it’ll be around US$50. That’s about the same price as filling up a petrol car though at current prices.
cinntaile 3y ago
It's likely subsidies that still make it profitable to produce even at negative prices.
- patall 3y ago
  It is long term contracts, not subsidies (which obvoliously are a type of long term price gurantee in most cases) alone. From what I read from Germany before, local grid shortages may further contribute. Since the price is constant in one grid zone but demand may be higher in some nodes, local variable producers may have to be online even though it costs them money to generate.
Kim_Bruning 3y ago
I'm thinking we need even smarter meters/battery chargers etc that monitor the current price. Or -eg- rig up the washing machine to a pi/arduino/other or so to start up once the price hits 0 at a negative dp/dt (where p is price). Now it makes sense for some electronics to have a network connection for this kind of info!

yanellena 3y ago

I can only speak for myself but I've rearranged a few household jobs to take advantage of the negative prices today. I'm not going to miss an opportunity to be paid to use energy.

hsjqllzlfkf 3y ago
What, do you normally have electricity prices streamed to your phone or something?

kybernetikos 3y ago

I'm not actually doing this as I don't currently have access to negative prices, but I do have a battery in my home, so at least in theory it would be possible for me to charge during negative price times to use the power for peak times. Even better would be to charge my electric car during these times. This does highlight the fact that we need smarter / more configurable home systems, since the decisions about what to do with solar / grid / battery / car can get fairly complex.

rcxdude 3y ago

people with battery systems or EVs are, or at least the batteries usually are: this provider has integrations with most home batteries. Storage heaters are another potential sink, though less useful this time of year.

implements 3y ago
If you’ve still got an insulated hot water tank with an electric immersion heater just dump excess solar generated electricity into that - you can always treat yourself to a good soak in hot bath!

krona 3y ago

Pumped-storage hydroelectric power generators (e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinorwig_Power_Station https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinorwig_Power_Station) use cheaper prices to pump water up mountains.

eternityforest 3y ago

Presumably industrial consumers are looking at pricing and will decide to smelt more aluminum or something when it's cheap.

mchannon 3y ago
Aluminum smelting isn’t all that dispatchable. During times of crisis, it can be idled, but the reduction units aren’t designed to turn on and off subject to the whims of the market- capital equipment and labor to run it aren’t going to work at a 10 percent duty factor.

zokier 3y ago

idk about uk but around here spot prices are released on the previous day. that is enough time to allow scheduling your day to run eg laundry or dishwasher during best hours, or at least off-peak.

jdietrich 3y ago

The inputs and outputs of the grid need to be balanced. A large proportion of the UK's grid inputs come from renewables - wind and solar - that can't easily be controlled. That's leading to increased supply volatility and so increased price volatility, which in extremis results in (previously unheard-of) negative prices. Consumers aren't looking at prices in real time, but industrial users are. Let's say that you run a large cold storage facility. You need to maintain temperatures within a safe range, but that gives you some responsiveness to real-time prices - you could push towards the low end of that range when prices are low, or drift up to the high end of that range when prices are high. In effect, you're using the temperature of your warehouse as an energy storage system. The same would apply to many industrial processes that involve heating, cooling or pressurised fluid. As we transition towards 100% sustainable energy, we hope to exploit much more of these non-obvious sources of energy storage through dynamic pricing and smart appliances. If you charge your electric car overnight, you don't actually care when it draws energy from the grid as long as your battery is full in the morning. A smart charger could wait until prices are low in the dead of night, or even feed back some energy to the grid during the early evening. You probably won't notice if your air conditioner or your heating drifts beyond the set temperature by half a degree, but the grid most certainly will notice millions of smart thermostats that can reduce grid demand during brief peaks.

hsjqllzlfkf 3y ago
> Consumers aren't looking at prices in real time, but industrial users are. The headline says retail though.

robin_reala 3y ago

I’m looking at it in real-time, and my provider sends me a notification if price drops below a certain threshold. So things like charging the car or bothering to run a pyrolytic clean of the oven definitely happen in these circumstances.

hsjqllzlfkf 3y ago
How much does it cost to charge your car from 0 to 100% at the average price?
- robin_reala 3y ago
  The prices I’ve seen over the last year range from –US$0.05 to to US$0.88 per kWh depending on what’s happening with the supply. So there’s really no average, it depends completely on timing. But worst case it’ll be around US$50. That’s about the same price as filling up a petrol car though at current prices.

cinntaile 3y ago

It's likely subsidies that still make it profitable to produce even at negative prices.

patall 3y ago
It is long term contracts, not subsidies (which obvoliously are a type of long term price gurantee in most cases) alone. From what I read from Germany before, local grid shortages may further contribute. Since the price is constant in one grid zone but demand may be higher in some nodes, local variable producers may have to be online even though it costs them money to generate.

Kim_Bruning 3y ago

I'm thinking we need even smarter meters/battery chargers etc that monitor the current price. Or -eg- rig up the washing machine to a pi/arduino/other or so to start up once the price hits 0 at a negative dp/dt (where p is price). Now it makes sense for some electronics to have a network connection for this kind of info!