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This largely agrees with my own observations- I find that the benefit of knowing about ethical frameworks, societal issues, biases and fallacies ends at being a

This largely agrees with my own observations- I find that the benefit of knowing about ethical frameworks, societal issues, biases and fallacies ends at being aware of and taking them into consideration, and past that rapidly devolves into justifying increasingly contorted worldviews. You can see this in any and every ideology-centric group no matter how moral it actually is, from the unequivocally good like feminism, all the way to incels. The main reason people dig deeper into the underlying theory is motivated cognition, not desire for open-mindedness.

dudeinjapan 3y ago
Feminism is “unequivocally good” is it?
- scotty79 3y ago
  Yes. Do you think that believing that women are lesser form of humans is better?
  - CrampusDestrus 3y ago
    That is a false dichotomy. There are many other beliefs incompatible with feminism that don't include believing that women are "lesser".
    - scotty79 3y ago
      Such as?
      - CrampusDestrus 3y ago
        such as believing that females and males are better optimized for certain tasks
        scotty79 3y ago
        I don't think that's incompatible with feminism. I think feminism just opposes putting up gender barriers of any kind in the way of any activity despite of what anyone thinks about who's optimized for what. I mean the discussion is about what constitutes a barrier, and how to prevent them, but the general sentiment that's still the core of the idea is unequivocally good. Anything else?
  - munch117 3y ago
    The word you're looking for is "egalitarianism". "Feminism" means different things to different people. If you use "feminism" as a synonym for "gender egalitarianism", then that's not entirely incorrect, but you are picking a fight that will be full of straw man arguments, because other people use the word differently.
    - names_are_hard 3y ago
      Even egalitarianism isn't necessarily an unequivocal good, it depends on your goal function. Individual self actualization isn't universally accepted as an appropriate goal for society, neither is the idea that all people are born equal. (I happen to share those values but I know people and entire societies with belief systems that don't.)
  - dudeinjapan 3y ago
    I am a humanist. Women are neither lesser nor greater than men, just as the yin is not lesser than the yang or vice versa. Women and men are not the same--our bodies are undeniably different. There are strains of feminism which blame men collectively for all ills in society. I do not view such ideology as "unequivocally good."
    - Llamamoe 3y ago
      > There are strains of feminism which blame men collectively for all ills in society I find that these views are spread not so much by strains of feminism or anyone seeking to improve society, as by the aforementioned people using feminist frameworks to justify their own takes on gender essentialism and bigotry. I don't consider this feminism since it does nothing to improve anything for anyone, but yes, the lack of intolerance for misandry among feminist spaces is one of my big issues with it.
      - dudeinjapan 3y ago
        > I don't consider this feminism... but yes, the lack of intolerance for misandry among feminist spaces is one of my big issues with it. This is called the "No True Scotsman" fallacy. ("No true feminist would be intolerant or misandrous.") https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman I will agree that feminism is "unequivocally good" if we first define it thusly then discount every feminist who is less-than-good :)
        scotty79 3y ago
        You can't really talk about these things very rigidly. Otherwise you'd have to conclude that any religion is only as good as the worst inhumane madman that adopted it as his motivation.
        dudeinjapan 3y ago
        I am simply observing that "feminism" is unworthy of the label "unequivocally good". I agree that "religion" is also not "unequivocally good". And one doesn't need to invoke Torquemada to make that claim; religion (or any -ism) imposes rules/structures on society that incur complex trade-offs, such that one can't say they are wholly good 100% of the time.
  - drdeca 3y ago
    The issue, I think, is that the word "Feminism" isn't used as having a consistent meaning? Like, it is kind of a coalitional word, I think. Of course, there are a number of ideas in common amongst the various ways it has been used, and among those ideas held in common, are "women often experience unfair disadvantages due to how women are treated compared to men." and "that should be addressed/remedied in some way.", and these statements are true. But, the word "feminism" is not understood to refer solely to those statements held in common. If it was, there would be no such thing as different "waves" of feminism. Rather, the word "feminism", at least often, is used to refer to "those claims made/supported by a coalition of people calling themselves "feminists". (Personally, I try to avoid actually using the word "feminism", rather than referring to it, because I think that thinking of it as the name of "a thing" risks confusion which I'd rather avoid?)

dudeinjapan 3y ago

Feminism is “unequivocally good” is it?

scotty79 3y ago
Yes. Do you think that believing that women are lesser form of humans is better?
- CrampusDestrus 3y ago
  That is a false dichotomy. There are many other beliefs incompatible with feminism that don't include believing that women are "lesser".
  - scotty79 3y ago
    Such as?
    - CrampusDestrus 3y ago
      such as believing that females and males are better optimized for certain tasks
      - scotty79 3y ago
        I don't think that's incompatible with feminism. I think feminism just opposes putting up gender barriers of any kind in the way of any activity despite of what anyone thinks about who's optimized for what. I mean the discussion is about what constitutes a barrier, and how to prevent them, but the general sentiment that's still the core of the idea is unequivocally good. Anything else?
- munch117 3y ago
  The word you're looking for is "egalitarianism". "Feminism" means different things to different people. If you use "feminism" as a synonym for "gender egalitarianism", then that's not entirely incorrect, but you are picking a fight that will be full of straw man arguments, because other people use the word differently.
  - names_are_hard 3y ago
    Even egalitarianism isn't necessarily an unequivocal good, it depends on your goal function. Individual self actualization isn't universally accepted as an appropriate goal for society, neither is the idea that all people are born equal. (I happen to share those values but I know people and entire societies with belief systems that don't.)
- dudeinjapan 3y ago
  I am a humanist. Women are neither lesser nor greater than men, just as the yin is not lesser than the yang or vice versa. Women and men are not the same--our bodies are undeniably different. There are strains of feminism which blame men collectively for all ills in society. I do not view such ideology as "unequivocally good."
  - Llamamoe 3y ago
    > There are strains of feminism which blame men collectively for all ills in society I find that these views are spread not so much by strains of feminism or anyone seeking to improve society, as by the aforementioned people using feminist frameworks to justify their own takes on gender essentialism and bigotry. I don't consider this feminism since it does nothing to improve anything for anyone, but yes, the lack of intolerance for misandry among feminist spaces is one of my big issues with it.
    - dudeinjapan 3y ago
      > I don't consider this feminism... but yes, the lack of intolerance for misandry among feminist spaces is one of my big issues with it. This is called the "No True Scotsman" fallacy. ("No true feminist would be intolerant or misandrous.") https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman I will agree that feminism is "unequivocally good" if we first define it thusly then discount every feminist who is less-than-good :)
      - scotty79 3y ago
        You can't really talk about these things very rigidly. Otherwise you'd have to conclude that any religion is only as good as the worst inhumane madman that adopted it as his motivation.
        dudeinjapan 3y ago
        I am simply observing that "feminism" is unworthy of the label "unequivocally good". I agree that "religion" is also not "unequivocally good". And one doesn't need to invoke Torquemada to make that claim; religion (or any -ism) imposes rules/structures on society that incur complex trade-offs, such that one can't say they are wholly good 100% of the time.
- drdeca 3y ago
  The issue, I think, is that the word "Feminism" isn't used as having a consistent meaning? Like, it is kind of a coalitional word, I think. Of course, there are a number of ideas in common amongst the various ways it has been used, and among those ideas held in common, are "women often experience unfair disadvantages due to how women are treated compared to men." and "that should be addressed/remedied in some way.", and these statements are true. But, the word "feminism" is not understood to refer solely to those statements held in common. If it was, there would be no such thing as different "waves" of feminism. Rather, the word "feminism", at least often, is used to refer to "those claims made/supported by a coalition of people calling themselves "feminists". (Personally, I try to avoid actually using the word "feminism", rather than referring to it, because I think that thinking of it as the name of "a thing" risks confusion which I'd rather avoid?)