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You honestly believe that people who get into Harvard don't have more self-discipline on average that those who don't?

jrflowers 3y ago
Can’t speak for the GP but I’d say “No they do not” to your question.
testermelon 3y ago
Assuming that they do, does it significantly change the patterns and tendencies of actions among that age group? I think the distribution of behavior should be intact even if you just sample among Harvard students.
p-e-w 3y ago
People who attend institutions considered "elite" have on average been told since early childhood that they are part of the elite. In my experience, such people tend to have less self-discipline and fewer inhibitions than regular folks. That's a natural consequence of knowing that nothing truly bad can ever happen to you, no matter what you do.
- Gareth321 3y ago
  While true, the estimated average IQ at Harvard is 142. IQ is highly associated with self-control and discipline.
  - p-e-w 3y ago
    > IQ is highly associated with self-control and discipline. I'd like to see a citation for that, especially for the idea that the self-control/discipline associated with high IQs transfers over to non-academic aspects of life, which is what's in question here.
    - DropInIn 3y ago
      I'm pretty sure they're conflating a higher likelihood of determining an action precluding risk factor prior to action with actual self control and discipline.... It's more just that the smarter you are the more likely you are to both recognize the existence of the risk factor as well as "do the math" before your impulses induce action.
    - Gareth321 3y ago
      Here you go: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2614657/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2614657/ > Delay behavior in both sexes was also correlated positively with IQ and with Q-sort-derived indexes of ego resiliency and ego control. The relationship between ego control and delay behavior was particularly strong after both IQ and ego resiliency were partialled. These results were interpreted as reflecting the fundamental importance of both cognitive skillfulness and impulse control for adaptive delay behavior in situations that contain strong motivational inducements. This study doesn’t measure academic related delayed gratification. I’m surprised to be asked for a source. This has been settled science for decades.
  - meindnoch 3y ago
    Estimated average IQ from SAT score. So it's bullshit. They just cram SAT prep non-stop with private tutors.
    - Gareth321 3y ago
      > So it's bullshit. That’s quite the opinion. Do you have any evidence to back that up? Countless studies have found that SAT scores are highly correlated with intelligence. Both “g” and IQ, which are roughly equivalent for this context. For example: https://www.psychologicalscience.org/pdf/ps/Frey.pdf?origin=publication_detail https://www.psychologicalscience.org/pdf/ps/Frey.pdf?origin=... And here is another: http://www.iapsych.com/iqmr/koening2008.pdf http://www.iapsych.com/iqmr/koening2008.pdf
      - 411111111111111 3y ago
        I don't think anyone would argue otherwise, the controversy is that IQ test results can be increased significantly by training. But that discussion ultimately boils down to what intelligence really is... You either subscribe to the believe that it's essentially something you're born with or something that can be improved by training. IQ tests fundamentally cannot measure for the former definition, but I does a decent job for the latter.
        Gareth321 3y ago
        The user I replied to is clearly arguing that SATs do not provide any correlation with IQ. They called the proposition “bullshit.” As for your question, g is very difficult to improve through training. Almost impossible in adulthood. The only studies I am aware of which indicate an ability to improve IQ score over time are those which allow participants to repeatedly take similar IQ tests. This enables the respondents to practise the type of question and answer faster and more accurately. Obviously this would produce an inaccurate result, over-estimating the intelligence of the individual. To draw parallels with the SAT, I see evidence that repeated attempts reveal gaps in one’s knowledge and skill, and these are prerequisites for the test. This permits the individual to study those areas and practise the kinds of skills required to improve their score. Given this, we should acknowledge that the SAT is not a perfect analogue for IQ tests, but in aggregate, they do yield striking correlation. To tie this to my premise above, it is highly likely that the average Harvard student has an above-average IQ.
badrequest 3y ago
Not the GP, but emphatically and obviously yes. There's the "reads a new book once per week" type of discipline that the average ivy leaguer tends to have, and there's the "wakes up at 4AM to go to the job they don't like despite how much their back hurts" discipline that the working class are obligated to develop.
- deely3 3y ago
  Whoa, thats quite arrogant statement. So, are you PR person from Harvard?
- josh_fyi 3y ago
  > reads a new book once per week" type of discipline that the average ivy leaguer tends to have I got two degrees and spent five years at Harvard, and -- no, they don't.
- credit_guy 3y ago
  So you're saying the sweat of a coal miner is equivalent to the sweat of an Einstein ("genius is one percent inspiration and 99 percent perspiration")?
yardstick 3y ago
It’s my understanding that a lot of people who could make the cut for Harvard etc but do not due to resource constraints (limited student numbers, limited finances). These people then go on to other universities. So yes I believe you’ll find all levels of self-discipline across all the universities.
- kelipso 3y ago
  The difference is there are some 3000 universities in the US. I guarantee you, the vast majority of students who could make the cut at Harvard are not attending a college ranked at 1500. So when you compare an average student at Harvard, maybe there's no significant difference between that student and students at the top 100 (or pick a number, 100 seems high frankly, I've studied in universities ranked around 20, 50, 100 and the differences in the average student and course difficulty was quite big between the 20 and 100) ranked universities, but there's certainly a difference between that student and the average college student.
beebeepka 3y ago
This has to be sarcasm

Can’t speak for the GP but I’d say “No they do not” to your question.

Assuming that they do, does it significantly change the patterns and tendencies of actions among that age group? I think the distribution of behavior should be intact even if you just sample among Harvard students.

p-e-w 3y ago

People who attend institutions considered "elite" have on average been told since early childhood that they are part of the elite. In my experience, such people tend to have less self-discipline and fewer inhibitions than regular folks. That's a natural consequence of knowing that nothing truly bad can ever happen to you, no matter what you do.

Gareth321 3y ago
While true, the estimated average IQ at Harvard is 142. IQ is highly associated with self-control and discipline.
- p-e-w 3y ago
  > IQ is highly associated with self-control and discipline. I'd like to see a citation for that, especially for the idea that the self-control/discipline associated with high IQs transfers over to non-academic aspects of life, which is what's in question here.
  - DropInIn 3y ago
    I'm pretty sure they're conflating a higher likelihood of determining an action precluding risk factor prior to action with actual self control and discipline.... It's more just that the smarter you are the more likely you are to both recognize the existence of the risk factor as well as "do the math" before your impulses induce action.
  - Gareth321 3y ago
    Here you go: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2614657/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2614657/ > Delay behavior in both sexes was also correlated positively with IQ and with Q-sort-derived indexes of ego resiliency and ego control. The relationship between ego control and delay behavior was particularly strong after both IQ and ego resiliency were partialled. These results were interpreted as reflecting the fundamental importance of both cognitive skillfulness and impulse control for adaptive delay behavior in situations that contain strong motivational inducements. This study doesn’t measure academic related delayed gratification. I’m surprised to be asked for a source. This has been settled science for decades.
- meindnoch 3y ago
  Estimated average IQ from SAT score. So it's bullshit. They just cram SAT prep non-stop with private tutors.
  - Gareth321 3y ago
    > So it's bullshit. That’s quite the opinion. Do you have any evidence to back that up? Countless studies have found that SAT scores are highly correlated with intelligence. Both “g” and IQ, which are roughly equivalent for this context. For example: https://www.psychologicalscience.org/pdf/ps/Frey.pdf?origin=publication_detail https://www.psychologicalscience.org/pdf/ps/Frey.pdf?origin=... And here is another: http://www.iapsych.com/iqmr/koening2008.pdf http://www.iapsych.com/iqmr/koening2008.pdf
    - 411111111111111 3y ago
      I don't think anyone would argue otherwise, the controversy is that IQ test results can be increased significantly by training. But that discussion ultimately boils down to what intelligence really is... You either subscribe to the believe that it's essentially something you're born with or something that can be improved by training. IQ tests fundamentally cannot measure for the former definition, but I does a decent job for the latter.
      - Gareth321 3y ago
        The user I replied to is clearly arguing that SATs do not provide any correlation with IQ. They called the proposition “bullshit.” As for your question, g is very difficult to improve through training. Almost impossible in adulthood. The only studies I am aware of which indicate an ability to improve IQ score over time are those which allow participants to repeatedly take similar IQ tests. This enables the respondents to practise the type of question and answer faster and more accurately. Obviously this would produce an inaccurate result, over-estimating the intelligence of the individual. To draw parallels with the SAT, I see evidence that repeated attempts reveal gaps in one’s knowledge and skill, and these are prerequisites for the test. This permits the individual to study those areas and practise the kinds of skills required to improve their score. Given this, we should acknowledge that the SAT is not a perfect analogue for IQ tests, but in aggregate, they do yield striking correlation. To tie this to my premise above, it is highly likely that the average Harvard student has an above-average IQ.

badrequest 3y ago

Not the GP, but emphatically and obviously yes. There's the "reads a new book once per week" type of discipline that the average ivy leaguer tends to have, and there's the "wakes up at 4AM to go to the job they don't like despite how much their back hurts" discipline that the working class are obligated to develop.

deely3 3y ago
Whoa, thats quite arrogant statement. So, are you PR person from Harvard?
josh_fyi 3y ago
> reads a new book once per week" type of discipline that the average ivy leaguer tends to have I got two degrees and spent five years at Harvard, and -- no, they don't.
credit_guy 3y ago
So you're saying the sweat of a coal miner is equivalent to the sweat of an Einstein ("genius is one percent inspiration and 99 percent perspiration")?

yardstick 3y ago

It’s my understanding that a lot of people who could make the cut for Harvard etc but do not due to resource constraints (limited student numbers, limited finances). These people then go on to other universities. So yes I believe you’ll find all levels of self-discipline across all the universities.

kelipso 3y ago
The difference is there are some 3000 universities in the US. I guarantee you, the vast majority of students who could make the cut at Harvard are not attending a college ranked at 1500. So when you compare an average student at Harvard, maybe there's no significant difference between that student and students at the top 100 (or pick a number, 100 seems high frankly, I've studied in universities ranked around 20, 50, 100 and the differences in the average student and course difficulty was quite big between the 20 and 100) ranked universities, but there's certainly a difference between that student and the average college student.

beebeepka 3y ago

This has to be sarcasm