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I revised my comment - isn't the name of Russia itself a remnant of Scandinavian origins? I don't know what "Eastern Europe" has to do with "Westerners". If y

by vba616 3y ago

I revised my comment - isn't the name of Russia itself a remnant of Scandinavian origins? I don't know what "Eastern Europe" has to do with "Westerners". If you are lecturing a random American on the definition of Westerner, it's quite possible their ancestors came from Eastern Europe. The opposite of Western Europe - or NATO - used to be, in some sense, the Eastern Bloc and the Soviet Union. But that doesn't mean they weren't Westerners. Obviously once the iron curtain fell, it was demonstrated they weren't that different from the rest of Europe just because of the historical happenstance of Soviet oppression. In the Cold War era, there was, I believe, a concept of the unaligned countries, and I sort of thought that those were, in 20th century terms, the non-Western countries.

dragonwriter 3y ago
> I revised my comment - isn't the name of Russia itself a remnant of Scandinavian origins? It is, and that has nothing to do with the issue. > I don't know what "Eastern Europe" has to do with "Westerners". It has to do with the fact that Europe as a whole is not part of the classical definition of the West, and the part that isn’t Western is (or is a subset of, “Eastern Europe” having multiple definitions) Eastern Europe. > The opposite of Western Europe - or NATO - used to be, in some sense, the Eastern Bloc and the Soviet Union. Western Europe is not the same thing as NATO (a number of Western Eurooean countries were never in NATO, while a couple North American countries are.) Also, the concept of “Eastern Europe” is older than the post-WWII geopolitical conflict, though its true that that conflict shifted sonewhat the understanding of what “Eastern Europe” was. > But that doesn't mean they weren't Westerners Sure, by the older understanding, the West would clearly include Germany (not just West Germany), Poland, Hungary, and some other places behind the Iron Curtain. But it never included Russia. > In the Cold War era, there was, I believe, a concept of the unaligned countries, and I sort of thought that those were, in 20th century terms, the non-Western countries. The “non-aligned countries” aren't nob-Western in particular, or vice versa. Many of them were non-Western, some were Western; they were just countries not aligned with either of the two major geopolitical blocs (after the USSR/PRC split, the PRC actively worked to make the non-aligned group a bit more like a third, China-led bloc.)
- vba616 3y ago
  >It has to do with the fact that Europe as a whole is not part of the classical definition of the West Everything depends on context. How far back is "classical"? If you're saying that the Byzantine empire or the Ottoman empire or the Ummayad Caliphate were considered not of the "West", I'm not going to argue with you but they're long gone, and I thought that the Byzantine empire considered themselves to be the continuation of the Roman empire even if Western Europe didn't. I don't know much about the Austro-Hungarian empire, I think of it as "Western", though. >The “non-aligned countries” aren't nob-Western in particular, or vice versa. Many of them were non-Western, some were Western From what I've read, the original meaning of "third world" before it became pejorative was non-aligned countries in the Cold War. I'm unaware of, say, Finland or Switzerland - nonaligned Western countries more or less, yes? - ever being considered "third world".
  - dragonwriter 3y ago
    > From what I've read, the original meaning of "third world" before it became pejorative was non-aligned countries in the Cold War. That was the original sense, yes, but it was never particularly widely or popularly used in that sense. > I'm unaware of, say, Finland or Switzerland - nonaligned Western countries more or less, yes? - ever being considered "third world". Probably because "Third World” wasn’t a label most people (or the media) ever used in its original sense, it became popular mucb later as a another term for less developed countries, not in its original sense.

by vba616 3y ago

dragonwriter 3y ago

> I revised my comment - isn't the name of Russia itself a remnant of Scandinavian origins? It is, and that has nothing to do with the issue. > I don't know what "Eastern Europe" has to do with "Westerners". It has to do with the fact that Europe as a whole is not part of the classical definition of the West, and the part that isn’t Western is (or is a subset of, “Eastern Europe” having multiple definitions) Eastern Europe. > The opposite of Western Europe - or NATO - used to be, in some sense, the Eastern Bloc and the Soviet Union. Western Europe is not the same thing as NATO (a number of Western Eurooean countries were never in NATO, while a couple North American countries are.) Also, the concept of “Eastern Europe” is older than the post-WWII geopolitical conflict, though its true that that conflict shifted sonewhat the understanding of what “Eastern Europe” was. > But that doesn't mean they weren't Westerners Sure, by the older understanding, the West would clearly include Germany (not just West Germany), Poland, Hungary, and some other places behind the Iron Curtain. But it never included Russia. > In the Cold War era, there was, I believe, a concept of the unaligned countries, and I sort of thought that those were, in 20th century terms, the non-Western countries. The “non-aligned countries” aren't nob-Western in particular, or vice versa. Many of them were non-Western, some were Western; they were just countries not aligned with either of the two major geopolitical blocs (after the USSR/PRC split, the PRC actively worked to make the non-aligned group a bit more like a third, China-led bloc.)

vba616 3y ago
>It has to do with the fact that Europe as a whole is not part of the classical definition of the West Everything depends on context. How far back is "classical"? If you're saying that the Byzantine empire or the Ottoman empire or the Ummayad Caliphate were considered not of the "West", I'm not going to argue with you but they're long gone, and I thought that the Byzantine empire considered themselves to be the continuation of the Roman empire even if Western Europe didn't. I don't know much about the Austro-Hungarian empire, I think of it as "Western", though. >The “non-aligned countries” aren't nob-Western in particular, or vice versa. Many of them were non-Western, some were Western From what I've read, the original meaning of "third world" before it became pejorative was non-aligned countries in the Cold War. I'm unaware of, say, Finland or Switzerland - nonaligned Western countries more or less, yes? - ever being considered "third world".
- dragonwriter 3y ago
  > From what I've read, the original meaning of "third world" before it became pejorative was non-aligned countries in the Cold War. That was the original sense, yes, but it was never particularly widely or popularly used in that sense. > I'm unaware of, say, Finland or Switzerland - nonaligned Western countries more or less, yes? - ever being considered "third world". Probably because "Third World” wasn’t a label most people (or the media) ever used in its original sense, it became popular mucb later as a another term for less developed countries, not in its original sense.