6 ms·

That will be the case once H1-Bs are reformed and universal healthcare becomes real. Until then, this is an unrealistic and cruel position.

lrvick 3y ago
Fair point. I was only considering the perspective of US citizens. It does make me wonder how much the ratio of forced labor H1B situations has gone up at Twitter as US citizens all bail from the fire. I cannot imagine why anyone would work there if they had a choice at this point.
- neilk 3y ago
  According to some recent articles from mainstream media: There are about 550 full-time engineers at Twitter. [1] There are about 625-670 H1-B holders working at Twitter.[2] This isn't quite the full story since of course H1-B holders might be doing other jobs than engineering; many of those 550 engineers are not US-based; there are other visas for foreign workers in the USA than the H1-B; and Musk has reassigned some workers from his other companies to work at Twitter. But it sure looks like the answer is: a lot! [1] https://www.cnbc.com/2023/01/20/twitter-is-down-to-fewer-than-550-full-time-engineers.html https://www.cnbc.com/2023/01/20/twitter-is-down-to-fewer-tha... [2] https://www.forbes.com/sites/stuartanderson/2022/11/04/twitter-and-other-tech-layoffs-raise-h-1b-visa-employment-issues/?sh=20e4f5a14db6 https://www.forbes.com/sites/stuartanderson/2022/11/04/twitt...
  - TheCoelacanth 3y ago
    More accurately there were that many H1-B holders before the layoffs. After getting rid of 80% of employees, that number has surely dropped.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- ajmurmann 3y ago
  The entire H1B situation is bad for everyone in tech. Because it's significantly harder for H1B holders to change jobs, they have a harder negotiation position and thus reducer upward pressure for comp.
  - lanstin 3y ago
    Even worse they can’t disagree as easily with bad ideas from leadership. A healthy tech organization needs to make decisions based on negotiations between what is wished to be and what is; making a significant portion of the people who know the ground truth of things be reluctant to speak up when that ground truth is inconvenient can make for some pretty bad decisions.
  - mechanical_bear 3y ago
    It’s bad for everyone in tech because it drives wages down artificially.
- o1y32 3y ago
  Even US citizens need health care and very likely has mortgage to pay.
Xeamek 3y ago
Nah, that's bs. Sure, if you are unskilled worker that's struggling from paycheck to paycheck, then you might not be able to easily change work. But in our line of work, and ESPECIALLY if you are good enough to work at something like twitter, pretending we are force to work where we are is a cope. Sure, maybe there are some extreme instances when it is the case, there are always exceptions. But on average, it's cringe when people who earn literally twice what the average population does talk about "job insecurity" and pretend they are in the same boat as trully struggling lower class worker.
- tro2102 3y ago
  Did you ignore "H1-B" on purpose?
  - jrflowers 3y ago
    I believe the point that’s illustrated here is that it may be possible to find other work that will sponsor an H1-B visa.
    - milemi 3y ago
      When you’re on H1-B you’re applying for the green card through your employer, which is a multi-year process. So even if you find an employer who will sponsor it, you’ll be going back to the end of the line.
      - jrflowers 3y ago
        If you already have an H1-B and are in the US there is a transfer process that is not identical to the original application process.
        milemi 3y ago
        Only after labor and then I-140 have been approved, which together typically take more than a year. Also, many employers won’t start your green card application until you’ve been there for a year.
YetAnotherNick 3y ago
Whoever survived multiple internal knockout round of reviews would definitely have high value in job marketplace. Believe it or not many people like working in current twitter like arrangement rather than cushy no impact 9-5 jobs.
- ProjectArcturis 3y ago
  Well, after today you certainly can't call Twitter engineering "no impact" at least.
filmgirlcw 3y ago
I generally agree with you and do believe that having the ability to just quit a job is a privilege (regardless of what industry you’re in) for the reasons you mentioned (other reasons include your age (harder to get a job if you’re over 40 b/c of ageism), family responsibilities, part of the country you live in) BUT I do want to push back a little bit on current Twitter employees just a bit. It is absolutely true that for some people, they don’t have a choice in just quitting because of healthcare or H1B stuff. That’s absolutely true. But we're now at the 8 month mark of Elon buying Twitter. If you truly feel like it is a toxic and untenable place to work, you have had opportunities to explore other options. That doesn’t mean I judge or fault people who have chosen to stay, but this wasn’t January when there were tons of layoffs and uncertainty. Things have calmed down and while job offers aren’t falling off trees like they were in 2021, it isn’t the complete end of the world either. People do have some agency eight months in. Again, I won’t judge anyone for staying for whatever the reason is, but let’s not pretend as if every person remaining (H1B or not) is void of all agency.
- FranksTV 3y ago
  We're also in the middle of a downturn, with many companies laying off tens of thousands of employees.
papito 3y ago
I agree about healthcare. Employees in the United States over-perform because we can't risk losing health insurance and ending up in financial ruin. H1-B, now, as much as I am sympathetic to that (an immigrant coming from extreme poverty myself), I don't understand why HN treats losing a work visa as a death sentence. The tragedy here is what exactly? That you get to go home to your family and a country with a safety net and free healthcare, as bad as it might be? Before you apply for a new job? Is that really worse than some narcissistic rich douche shaving the years off your life by working you into the ground like this?
- sokoloff 3y ago
  The issue is that they, for their own mix of reasons, decided they most preferred to work in the US on an H1B, and are now losing that.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
flagrant_taco 3y ago
Universal healthcare isn't a hard requirement here. At a minimum we having more affordable medical insurance that isn't tied to employment would be a huge help.
- ThePowerOfFuet 3y ago
  Not possible while so many rent-seeking middlemen are in the US healthcare system.

lrvick 3y ago

Fair point. I was only considering the perspective of US citizens. It does make me wonder how much the ratio of forced labor H1B situations has gone up at Twitter as US citizens all bail from the fire. I cannot imagine why anyone would work there if they had a choice at this point.

neilk 3y ago
According to some recent articles from mainstream media: There are about 550 full-time engineers at Twitter. [1] There are about 625-670 H1-B holders working at Twitter.[2] This isn't quite the full story since of course H1-B holders might be doing other jobs than engineering; many of those 550 engineers are not US-based; there are other visas for foreign workers in the USA than the H1-B; and Musk has reassigned some workers from his other companies to work at Twitter. But it sure looks like the answer is: a lot! [1] https://www.cnbc.com/2023/01/20/twitter-is-down-to-fewer-than-550-full-time-engineers.html https://www.cnbc.com/2023/01/20/twitter-is-down-to-fewer-tha... [2] https://www.forbes.com/sites/stuartanderson/2022/11/04/twitter-and-other-tech-layoffs-raise-h-1b-visa-employment-issues/?sh=20e4f5a14db6 https://www.forbes.com/sites/stuartanderson/2022/11/04/twitt...
- TheCoelacanth 3y ago
  More accurately there were that many H1-B holders before the layoffs. After getting rid of 80% of employees, that number has surely dropped.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
ajmurmann 3y ago
The entire H1B situation is bad for everyone in tech. Because it's significantly harder for H1B holders to change jobs, they have a harder negotiation position and thus reducer upward pressure for comp.
- lanstin 3y ago
  Even worse they can’t disagree as easily with bad ideas from leadership. A healthy tech organization needs to make decisions based on negotiations between what is wished to be and what is; making a significant portion of the people who know the ground truth of things be reluctant to speak up when that ground truth is inconvenient can make for some pretty bad decisions.
- mechanical_bear 3y ago
  It’s bad for everyone in tech because it drives wages down artificially.
o1y32 3y ago
Even US citizens need health care and very likely has mortgage to pay.

Xeamek 3y ago

Nah, that's bs. Sure, if you are unskilled worker that's struggling from paycheck to paycheck, then you might not be able to easily change work. But in our line of work, and ESPECIALLY if you are good enough to work at something like twitter, pretending we are force to work where we are is a cope. Sure, maybe there are some extreme instances when it is the case, there are always exceptions. But on average, it's cringe when people who earn literally twice what the average population does talk about "job insecurity" and pretend they are in the same boat as trully struggling lower class worker.

tro2102 3y ago
Did you ignore "H1-B" on purpose?
- jrflowers 3y ago
  I believe the point that’s illustrated here is that it may be possible to find other work that will sponsor an H1-B visa.
  - milemi 3y ago
    When you’re on H1-B you’re applying for the green card through your employer, which is a multi-year process. So even if you find an employer who will sponsor it, you’ll be going back to the end of the line.
    - jrflowers 3y ago
      If you already have an H1-B and are in the US there is a transfer process that is not identical to the original application process.
      - milemi 3y ago
        Only after labor and then I-140 have been approved, which together typically take more than a year. Also, many employers won’t start your green card application until you’ve been there for a year.

YetAnotherNick 3y ago

Whoever survived multiple internal knockout round of reviews would definitely have high value in job marketplace. Believe it or not many people like working in current twitter like arrangement rather than cushy no impact 9-5 jobs.

ProjectArcturis 3y ago
Well, after today you certainly can't call Twitter engineering "no impact" at least.

filmgirlcw 3y ago

I generally agree with you and do believe that having the ability to just quit a job is a privilege (regardless of what industry you’re in) for the reasons you mentioned (other reasons include your age (harder to get a job if you’re over 40 b/c of ageism), family responsibilities, part of the country you live in) BUT I do want to push back a little bit on current Twitter employees just a bit. It is absolutely true that for some people, they don’t have a choice in just quitting because of healthcare or H1B stuff. That’s absolutely true. But we're now at the 8 month mark of Elon buying Twitter. If you truly feel like it is a toxic and untenable place to work, you have had opportunities to explore other options. That doesn’t mean I judge or fault people who have chosen to stay, but this wasn’t January when there were tons of layoffs and uncertainty. Things have calmed down and while job offers aren’t falling off trees like they were in 2021, it isn’t the complete end of the world either. People do have some agency eight months in. Again, I won’t judge anyone for staying for whatever the reason is, but let’s not pretend as if every person remaining (H1B or not) is void of all agency.

FranksTV 3y ago
We're also in the middle of a downturn, with many companies laying off tens of thousands of employees.

papito 3y ago

I agree about healthcare. Employees in the United States over-perform because we can't risk losing health insurance and ending up in financial ruin. H1-B, now, as much as I am sympathetic to that (an immigrant coming from extreme poverty myself), I don't understand why HN treats losing a work visa as a death sentence. The tragedy here is what exactly? That you get to go home to your family and a country with a safety net and free healthcare, as bad as it might be? Before you apply for a new job? Is that really worse than some narcissistic rich douche shaving the years off your life by working you into the ground like this?

sokoloff 3y ago
The issue is that they, for their own mix of reasons, decided they most preferred to work in the US on an H1B, and are now losing that.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

flagrant_taco 3y ago

Universal healthcare isn't a hard requirement here. At a minimum we having more affordable medical insurance that isn't tied to employment would be a huge help.

ThePowerOfFuet 3y ago
Not possible while so many rent-seeking middlemen are in the US healthcare system.