4 ms·

MDMA is not quite safe. We have decades of research to prove otherwise now. r/DrugNerds have been putting out study after study pointing this out. The protocols

MDMA is not quite safe. We have decades of research to prove otherwise now. r/DrugNerds have been putting out study after study pointing this out. The protocols required and safety measures for how often to dose are not what folks are going to be doing generally. It is neurotoxic. LSD on the other hand, yes quite safe (and even good) for your brain, unless you're prone to mental illness or currently suffering from mental illness.

resolutebat 3y ago
MDMA is also addictive, because it makes you feel good (it's not called "ecstasy" for nothing), and builds tolerance rapidly, so you need to keep increasing the dose. No, it's nowhere near as dangerous as meth/heroin/cocaine, but I have seen people spiral into pretty dangerous usage patterns, including switching to harder drugs when ecstasy isn't cutting it any more and they're stuck in a multi-day depressive withdrawal slump. For all practical purposes, none of this applies to LSD, since trips are much more intense and unpredictable. Although there is a small subset of psychonauts who adopt an extreme sports mindset and intentionally push the envelope by taking larger and larger doses.
otherme123 3y ago
Let me put it in another way: safety profile of MDMA is better than lots and lots of other clinically approved drugs. And much safer than substances like alcohol, that are not only neurotoxic but hepatotoxic, carcinogenic, highly addictive and with worse withdrawal. There was a time when MDMA was prescribed to thousands of people, and nobody had a problem. Of course some people will always abuse any substance, we currently have people killing themselves with food or sugar. But the best solution is not to classify it as Schedule I, which in practice is a full ban even for research.
- emptysongglass 3y ago
  You're continuing to make bad claims. I'm taking the time to debunk them because the safety of people reading these comments is important to me. MDMA is far more neurotoxic than alcohol. The oxidative stress put on the brain is potent. When you add elevated body temperature, which most folks on MDMA are likely to find themselves experiencing (dancing, hot club, lots of people), the damage climbs precipitously. In primates, damage to the brain has been detected after even single use. If people want to take drugs, that's their prerogative but after “playing” with drugs when I was younger, the only recreational drugs I can recommend are certain psychedelics if people care about their health, physical or mental. You can replace alcohol and ecstasy in many settings with a very low dose of psychedelics and get similar social opening effects with none of the damage of either.
  - cthalupa 3y ago
    Would it be possible to provide some of these studies? Whenever I look I can only find reference to long term exposure, and meta-studies reviewing more moderate use seem to show minimal, if any, issues, e.g. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S014976341530213X https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S014976341... To my knowledge, the one study that people held up as showing damage from MDMA usage after a single dose was later retracted, as they had mixed up the vials of MDMA and methamphetamine. They were never able to replicate the results after resolving this mistake. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retracted_article_on_dopaminergic_neurotoxicity_of_MDMA#Retraction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retracted_article_on_dopaminer... Disclaimer: I have taken MDMA a couple of times over the years, though I have never particularly enjoyed the experience and have never considered doing it regularly.
    - emptysongglass 3y ago
      Sure, happy to. Here's a meta-study [1] that cites another meta-study showing single use harm. [2] This study [3] shows changes in serotonin patterns seven years after administration in primates. MisterYouAreSoDumb was a legendary Redditor who frequently commented on the topic of harm. This one's a collection of references and a good TL;DR. [4] It's ten years old now but there's still a treasure trove of material here. Another comment from them that is the beginning of a series. [5] And as I mentioned earlier, the safety protocols required to mitigate the damage are extensive. You cannot rely on users going the distance to have a less-harmful experience. You must assume it's being taken under non-ideal conditions, with plenty of redosing, which is multiplicatively more damaging, as the axon terminals involved will simply run dry. Hope that's helpful. I'm not here to judge. I've also taken MDMA in my youth and quite a lot of it. But I do wish we had these resources available then as we do now so I could have made a more informed decision. My personal, anecdotal, experience is I had a bunch of pretty magical experiences with MDMA in my youth which I've never been able to reproduce since. That was personal confirmation that irrevocable changes had occurred due to use. The internet is chock full of similar stories. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3181923 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3181923 [2] https://sci-hub.se/https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12869661 https://sci-hub.se/https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12869661 [3] https://www.jneurosci.org/content/jneuro/19/12/5096.full.pdf https://www.jneurosci.org/content/jneuro/19/12/5096.full.pdf [4] https://www.reddit.com/r/Drugs/comments/15ix0s/comment/c7mvi4i/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Drugs/comments/15ix0s/comment/c7mvi... [5] https://www.reddit.com/r/DrugNerds/comments/13lp0b/mdma_neurotoxicity_part_1_metabolites/ https://www.reddit.com/r/DrugNerds/comments/13lp0b/mdma_neur...

resolutebat 3y ago

MDMA is also addictive, because it makes you feel good (it's not called "ecstasy" for nothing), and builds tolerance rapidly, so you need to keep increasing the dose. No, it's nowhere near as dangerous as meth/heroin/cocaine, but I have seen people spiral into pretty dangerous usage patterns, including switching to harder drugs when ecstasy isn't cutting it any more and they're stuck in a multi-day depressive withdrawal slump. For all practical purposes, none of this applies to LSD, since trips are much more intense and unpredictable. Although there is a small subset of psychonauts who adopt an extreme sports mindset and intentionally push the envelope by taking larger and larger doses.

otherme123 3y ago

Let me put it in another way: safety profile of MDMA is better than lots and lots of other clinically approved drugs. And much safer than substances like alcohol, that are not only neurotoxic but hepatotoxic, carcinogenic, highly addictive and with worse withdrawal. There was a time when MDMA was prescribed to thousands of people, and nobody had a problem. Of course some people will always abuse any substance, we currently have people killing themselves with food or sugar. But the best solution is not to classify it as Schedule I, which in practice is a full ban even for research.

emptysongglass 3y ago
You're continuing to make bad claims. I'm taking the time to debunk them because the safety of people reading these comments is important to me. MDMA is far more neurotoxic than alcohol. The oxidative stress put on the brain is potent. When you add elevated body temperature, which most folks on MDMA are likely to find themselves experiencing (dancing, hot club, lots of people), the damage climbs precipitously. In primates, damage to the brain has been detected after even single use. If people want to take drugs, that's their prerogative but after “playing” with drugs when I was younger, the only recreational drugs I can recommend are certain psychedelics if people care about their health, physical or mental. You can replace alcohol and ecstasy in many settings with a very low dose of psychedelics and get similar social opening effects with none of the damage of either.
- cthalupa 3y ago
  Would it be possible to provide some of these studies? Whenever I look I can only find reference to long term exposure, and meta-studies reviewing more moderate use seem to show minimal, if any, issues, e.g. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S014976341530213X https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S014976341... To my knowledge, the one study that people held up as showing damage from MDMA usage after a single dose was later retracted, as they had mixed up the vials of MDMA and methamphetamine. They were never able to replicate the results after resolving this mistake. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retracted_article_on_dopaminergic_neurotoxicity_of_MDMA#Retraction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retracted_article_on_dopaminer... Disclaimer: I have taken MDMA a couple of times over the years, though I have never particularly enjoyed the experience and have never considered doing it regularly.
  - emptysongglass 3y ago
    Sure, happy to. Here's a meta-study [1] that cites another meta-study showing single use harm. [2] This study [3] shows changes in serotonin patterns seven years after administration in primates. MisterYouAreSoDumb was a legendary Redditor who frequently commented on the topic of harm. This one's a collection of references and a good TL;DR. [4] It's ten years old now but there's still a treasure trove of material here. Another comment from them that is the beginning of a series. [5] And as I mentioned earlier, the safety protocols required to mitigate the damage are extensive. You cannot rely on users going the distance to have a less-harmful experience. You must assume it's being taken under non-ideal conditions, with plenty of redosing, which is multiplicatively more damaging, as the axon terminals involved will simply run dry. Hope that's helpful. I'm not here to judge. I've also taken MDMA in my youth and quite a lot of it. But I do wish we had these resources available then as we do now so I could have made a more informed decision. My personal, anecdotal, experience is I had a bunch of pretty magical experiences with MDMA in my youth which I've never been able to reproduce since. That was personal confirmation that irrevocable changes had occurred due to use. The internet is chock full of similar stories. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3181923 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3181923 [2] https://sci-hub.se/https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12869661 https://sci-hub.se/https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12869661 [3] https://www.jneurosci.org/content/jneuro/19/12/5096.full.pdf https://www.jneurosci.org/content/jneuro/19/12/5096.full.pdf [4] https://www.reddit.com/r/Drugs/comments/15ix0s/comment/c7mvi4i/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Drugs/comments/15ix0s/comment/c7mvi... [5] https://www.reddit.com/r/DrugNerds/comments/13lp0b/mdma_neurotoxicity_part_1_metabolites/ https://www.reddit.com/r/DrugNerds/comments/13lp0b/mdma_neur...