32 ms·

H-1B fraud consultancies grow, with application abuse openly discussed online

90 points by mfiguiere 3y ago

avidiax 3y ago
> Our source said the only solution he could think of would be to require US companies to hire a majority of American workers – which would prevent consultancies that consist mainly of a pool of H-1B employees. Or just throw out all the rules, make the H1-B system an auction. Highest total comp over 4 years wins. Add a whistleblower program paying treble the comp package if the beneficiary is not actually working, or not actually skilled. Package must be hourly, and the same whistleblower program applies to working off the clock.
- dixie_land 3y ago
  Yup. That aligns with the intention of the visa too: getting highly skilled workers. And compensation is the most objective measure of that.
  - ibero 3y ago
    H1B is not exclusive for software engineering and encompasses many other professions (architects, civil engineers, etc). Immigration policy is not aimed to serve the highly compensated field of the day, but to serve society at large. Society needs civil engineers or child psychologists just as much as a fintech developer.
    - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
      > H1B is not exclusive for software engineering and encompasses many other professions (architects, civil engineers, etc) Then partition the auctions by profession.
      - ibero 3y ago
        Yes, I agree that compensation alone is not enough.
      - kuchenbecker 3y ago
        We'll end up fighting which professions deserve H1Bs.
        throw9away6 3y ago
        It’s worth fighting for.
    - nitwit005 3y ago
      Remember that thr claim is that you can't find American labor with the right skills. There are no architects here? No psychologists? The only believable claims I've seen has been needing people who can translate unusual languages.
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
      - ibero 3y ago
        I’m not sure. I would imagine there is as much variety and diversity in those fields as there is in computer science. If that is the case, I can see why immigration might be necessary to make up for a domestic deficit.
        throw9away6 3y ago
        Excess of both
    - antonvs 3y ago
      > Immigration policy is not aimed to serve the highly compensated field of the day, but to serve society at large. Do you believe that description is consistent with the design and impact of the H1B visa?
    - nullc 3y ago
      Nothing about the auction is incompatible with that. If we don't have enough civil engineers this can be addressed by paying them more. What we're willing to pay is the ultimate measure, and really the only measure that matters-- of the supply/demand equation.
    - willcipriano 3y ago
      If society really needed them it would find a way to pay for them.
- achates 3y ago
  Or even just straight up auction them off to the highest bidder and the government keeps the money. Then you don't have to keep track of their salary or hours once they're here.
- black_13 3y ago
  [dead]
- bubblethink 3y ago
  It's a bogus program entirely. Very reminiscent of chattel slavery. It needs to be abolished altogether, but with the amount of dysfunction/lobbying in the government, it won't happen.
  - JCharante 3y ago
    Why is it reminiscent of chattel slavery?
    - bubblethink 3y ago
      The visa is a contract between the government and an employer where the employee is not a relevant party. The employee is tied to the employer and has limited rights or mobility. It is often difficult to transition out of the visa towards permanent residency. And even in order to transition to permanent residency, the employer needs to sponsor it in most cases. It's just a very exploitative model.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
rhaway84773 3y ago
It’s amazing that no one is questioning how the USCIS cannot detect that different companies are filing applications for the same person when an H1B application requires extremely detailed information about the applicant including their passport details. That’s right. It’s because the completely bankrupt USCIS doesn’t have a computerized system to collect applications and therefore cannot run a simple check to see whether they have multiple applications for the same passport number. But instead of questioning why in 2023 USCIS does not even use basic technology (even an Excel file will do) to detect fraud, an apparently technology savvy forum like HN chooses to insist that nothing can be done with fraud and therefore the entire system must be done with.
- satya71 3y ago
  Multiple applications for the same beneficiary are completely legitimate. The fraud here is that the applications are for jobs that don’t exist.
elforce002 3y ago
I see the issue with H-1B really simple. Take into account all jobs + college students (STEM). If nationals can't match the demand, allow international students to fill it. PhDs are granted 4~7-years visa in specific fields (STEM). Companies will get tax breaks if at least 80% of their workforce have citizenship. The sweet spot here is to keep the foreign talent coming without hurting nationals and now more than ever with the advent of "AI". We'll see which countries will attract the most talented people around the world while also developing its own talented people at home and thrive because of that, and which countries will get let behind because of brain drain and innovation.
- thatfrenchguy 3y ago
  Meh, I only had a masters (like any European new grad), and arguably I was more qualified for my position than most STEM PHDs. Not to mention if we start requiring PHDs, the master mills will just become PHD mills. If a legit tech company or a startup wants to hire someone, they should be able to (and that should convert directly to a green-card). We just need to stop the infosys of the world. The "apply for multiple companies" fraud is extremely unsophisticated though, we can probably fix that easily.
h1bfraud5 3y ago
Hi, throwaway account here. I just witnessed today an H1B fraud from my own circle. Yes, its possible. Yes its happening. This person file for 3 different companies. All of the companies are owned by the owner who provided this H1B fraud service. This person got the lottery with one of the companies. Turned out this company doesn’t even have an address. So this person rent a 6 months office, made the website as well. They will pay this person salary, but the money will be transferred back to this company through other means. In a few months, this person is trying to find another job which this person can transfer the H1B to. I don’t want to be too specific. But I want to say that these companies are not of Indian origin, and this person is not an Indian. Think of some countries that are more “legitimate” in the Western eyes. Just because these countries have low probabilities of fraud happening, doesn’t make it free of fraud. Quite the opposite. These people know this. They know that they aren’t being investigated as much as Indian/SouthEast Asian/African origin. The craziest part? This person isn’t even in a highly paid technical profession. Its just some low end management role. The pay is shit. Obviously won’t contribute to the society both in taxes or in skills. Shame on them. But it is also the stupidity of USCIS of letting this system abused. USCIS better get their shit together.
- hsjqllzlfkf 3y ago
  So report it.
  - cyanydeez 3y ago
    You know, the way he explains the fraud, the inept business regulations is what allows this to happen. America has a debilitating corporate veil that makes stuff like this happen.
gumby 3y ago
These fraudsters have led to a completely broken H-1 system (Congress shares the blame though). 1 - I was on the board of a foreign-language school. We used to bring teachers over on H-1 visas: recruit them in April/May because that's when teachers look for work, have them start in August. But now it's impossible as the allocation is consumed long before the teachers are available. 2 - My son's gf was educated in the US (BS + MS). She is able to work for a while (you get a year or two of work allowed on the F) but then didn't win the H-1 lottery. So they will move away next year. Stupid: they are both well educated and contribute to the US economy (and pay a lot of taxes). One of them will even keep their job, just do it overseas. Even China is recruiting more foreign scientists than the USA these days.
t8hfw2h8931rnb 3y ago
I've tried applying for H1B jobs, but no luck so far. It feels like just applying for jobs that say they provide H1B sponsorship isn't the way to do this, but I don't know what else to do. Also, job search for H1B jobs is a nightmare. Searching for them inevitably returns a ton of results that say they don't provide sponsorship. There's usually no field in the job site to select a distinct option for this either.
snotrockets 3y ago
> the visa is attractive to foreign techies as it gives them a route to eventual permanent Tell me you are unfamiliar with the US visa rules without telling me you are unfamiliar with US visa rules. > are largely run by Indian-born CEOs. Like Microsoft & Alphabet? As bad as US immigration is (I know, I passed through it), this story stinks of racism & bigotry.
bacchusracine 3y ago
Well why not? There are no consequences! Fines? Cost of doing business. Already factored into the operating expenses.

90 points by mfiguiere 3y ago

> Our source said the only solution he could think of would be to require US companies to hire a majority of American workers – which would prevent consultancies that consist mainly of a pool of H-1B employees. Or just throw out all the rules, make the H1-B system an auction. Highest total comp over 4 years wins. Add a whistleblower program paying treble the comp package if the beneficiary is not actually working, or not actually skilled. Package must be hourly, and the same whistleblower program applies to working off the clock.

dixie_land 3y ago
Yup. That aligns with the intention of the visa too: getting highly skilled workers. And compensation is the most objective measure of that.
- ibero 3y ago
  H1B is not exclusive for software engineering and encompasses many other professions (architects, civil engineers, etc). Immigration policy is not aimed to serve the highly compensated field of the day, but to serve society at large. Society needs civil engineers or child psychologists just as much as a fintech developer.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > H1B is not exclusive for software engineering and encompasses many other professions (architects, civil engineers, etc) Then partition the auctions by profession.
    - ibero 3y ago
      Yes, I agree that compensation alone is not enough.
    - kuchenbecker 3y ago
      We'll end up fighting which professions deserve H1Bs.
      - throw9away6 3y ago
        It’s worth fighting for.
  - nitwit005 3y ago
    Remember that thr claim is that you can't find American labor with the right skills. There are no architects here? No psychologists? The only believable claims I've seen has been needing people who can translate unusual languages.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - ibero 3y ago
      I’m not sure. I would imagine there is as much variety and diversity in those fields as there is in computer science. If that is the case, I can see why immigration might be necessary to make up for a domestic deficit.
      - throw9away6 3y ago
        Excess of both
  - antonvs 3y ago
    > Immigration policy is not aimed to serve the highly compensated field of the day, but to serve society at large. Do you believe that description is consistent with the design and impact of the H1B visa?
  - nullc 3y ago
    Nothing about the auction is incompatible with that. If we don't have enough civil engineers this can be addressed by paying them more. What we're willing to pay is the ultimate measure, and really the only measure that matters-- of the supply/demand equation.
  - willcipriano 3y ago
    If society really needed them it would find a way to pay for them.
achates 3y ago
Or even just straight up auction them off to the highest bidder and the government keeps the money. Then you don't have to keep track of their salary or hours once they're here.
black_13 3y ago
[dead]
bubblethink 3y ago
It's a bogus program entirely. Very reminiscent of chattel slavery. It needs to be abolished altogether, but with the amount of dysfunction/lobbying in the government, it won't happen.
- JCharante 3y ago
  Why is it reminiscent of chattel slavery?
  - bubblethink 3y ago
    The visa is a contract between the government and an employer where the employee is not a relevant party. The employee is tied to the employer and has limited rights or mobility. It is often difficult to transition out of the visa towards permanent residency. And even in order to transition to permanent residency, the employer needs to sponsor it in most cases. It's just a very exploitative model.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

rhaway84773 3y ago

It’s amazing that no one is questioning how the USCIS cannot detect that different companies are filing applications for the same person when an H1B application requires extremely detailed information about the applicant including their passport details. That’s right. It’s because the completely bankrupt USCIS doesn’t have a computerized system to collect applications and therefore cannot run a simple check to see whether they have multiple applications for the same passport number. But instead of questioning why in 2023 USCIS does not even use basic technology (even an Excel file will do) to detect fraud, an apparently technology savvy forum like HN chooses to insist that nothing can be done with fraud and therefore the entire system must be done with.

satya71 3y ago
Multiple applications for the same beneficiary are completely legitimate. The fraud here is that the applications are for jobs that don’t exist.

elforce002 3y ago

I see the issue with H-1B really simple. Take into account all jobs + college students (STEM). If nationals can't match the demand, allow international students to fill it. PhDs are granted 4~7-years visa in specific fields (STEM). Companies will get tax breaks if at least 80% of their workforce have citizenship. The sweet spot here is to keep the foreign talent coming without hurting nationals and now more than ever with the advent of "AI". We'll see which countries will attract the most talented people around the world while also developing its own talented people at home and thrive because of that, and which countries will get let behind because of brain drain and innovation.

thatfrenchguy 3y ago
Meh, I only had a masters (like any European new grad), and arguably I was more qualified for my position than most STEM PHDs. Not to mention if we start requiring PHDs, the master mills will just become PHD mills. If a legit tech company or a startup wants to hire someone, they should be able to (and that should convert directly to a green-card). We just need to stop the infosys of the world. The "apply for multiple companies" fraud is extremely unsophisticated though, we can probably fix that easily.

h1bfraud5 3y ago

Hi, throwaway account here. I just witnessed today an H1B fraud from my own circle. Yes, its possible. Yes its happening. This person file for 3 different companies. All of the companies are owned by the owner who provided this H1B fraud service. This person got the lottery with one of the companies. Turned out this company doesn’t even have an address. So this person rent a 6 months office, made the website as well. They will pay this person salary, but the money will be transferred back to this company through other means. In a few months, this person is trying to find another job which this person can transfer the H1B to. I don’t want to be too specific. But I want to say that these companies are not of Indian origin, and this person is not an Indian. Think of some countries that are more “legitimate” in the Western eyes. Just because these countries have low probabilities of fraud happening, doesn’t make it free of fraud. Quite the opposite. These people know this. They know that they aren’t being investigated as much as Indian/SouthEast Asian/African origin. The craziest part? This person isn’t even in a highly paid technical profession. Its just some low end management role. The pay is shit. Obviously won’t contribute to the society both in taxes or in skills. Shame on them. But it is also the stupidity of USCIS of letting this system abused. USCIS better get their shit together.

hsjqllzlfkf 3y ago
So report it.
- cyanydeez 3y ago
  You know, the way he explains the fraud, the inept business regulations is what allows this to happen. America has a debilitating corporate veil that makes stuff like this happen.

gumby 3y ago

These fraudsters have led to a completely broken H-1 system (Congress shares the blame though). 1 - I was on the board of a foreign-language school. We used to bring teachers over on H-1 visas: recruit them in April/May because that's when teachers look for work, have them start in August. But now it's impossible as the allocation is consumed long before the teachers are available. 2 - My son's gf was educated in the US (BS + MS). She is able to work for a while (you get a year or two of work allowed on the F) but then didn't win the H-1 lottery. So they will move away next year. Stupid: they are both well educated and contribute to the US economy (and pay a lot of taxes). One of them will even keep their job, just do it overseas. Even China is recruiting more foreign scientists than the USA these days.

t8hfw2h8931rnb 3y ago

I've tried applying for H1B jobs, but no luck so far. It feels like just applying for jobs that say they provide H1B sponsorship isn't the way to do this, but I don't know what else to do. Also, job search for H1B jobs is a nightmare. Searching for them inevitably returns a ton of results that say they don't provide sponsorship. There's usually no field in the job site to select a distinct option for this either.

snotrockets 3y ago

> the visa is attractive to foreign techies as it gives them a route to eventual permanent Tell me you are unfamiliar with the US visa rules without telling me you are unfamiliar with US visa rules. > are largely run by Indian-born CEOs. Like Microsoft & Alphabet? As bad as US immigration is (I know, I passed through it), this story stinks of racism & bigotry.

bacchusracine 3y ago

Well why not? There are no consequences! Fines? Cost of doing business. Already factored into the operating expenses.