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> The only exceptions where a teacher is essential are areas where you learn by doing and being critiqued, not by reading/watching. E.g. instrument/voice lesson

> The only exceptions where a teacher is essential are areas where you learn by doing and being critiqued, not by reading/watching. E.g. instrument/voice lessons… I don’t think this is an exception. Record yourself doing these things and critique yourself. It’s not as valuable as having multiple people critique you, but it’s not less valuable than having one other stranger critique you. Until you gain a certain level of competence you’ll know where and how you suck. I’m currently learning bass guitar and recording myself has been incredibly valuable for seeing and hearing things I don’t notice when I’m playing. I think it’s also sort of closed the gap between what I think I sound like and how I actually sound when I play. (I’d recommend it even if you get a teacher.) my only teachers have been online videos and web pages. I can’t see how a teacher can add value here. If I got one, I’d most likely be learning the teacher’s way. I’m finding a lot of value in hearing multiple POVs, trying it all out, finding what works for me and whose opinions I should value. The article says teachers are faster, but I can evaluate online video sources much faster and more easily than I can evaluate teachers. I might not learn faster but I certainly learn more and at a deeper level, because my mind is engaged in every part of the process. As an aside, I think teachers often gloss over things that they think don’t matter right now. You’re getting a short cut, but you either miss out on something or later have to learn how that thing connects to what you know. Often, I find taking a moment to learn a little bit about that thing can aid you on your overall goal.

mtalantikite 3y ago
I think one of the issues is that there can be a significant gap in the level of teachers that you encounter. There are tons of teachers out there that are probably not much better, and maybe even worse, than going through people on YouTube, personal websites, online courses, etc. But then there are the truly masterful teachers in which the experience is on a whole different level, where the learning is beyond what you could do on your own. It's more on the level of a traditional guru, in the original sense of the word [1]. I've had both experiences, and I agree, in most cases a private teacher might not be worth it, but if you find the right person, it'll bring you way further than you ever could have gone on your own. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guru https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guru
- cgriswald 3y ago
  I agree. The right teacher can prune dead-end paths, quickly identify your weaknesses, provide you with tools and (importantly) explain their reasoning. They might also introduce you to more “meta” concepts and connections that you otherwise might have missed (which personally helps me stay interested and gain better mastery). If they can’t do that last bit, they’ll certainly help get you up to speed quickly, but you’ll be missing out on larger contextual understanding. That said, I’ve seen these types of teachers favor people who have shown themselves capable of learning and reasoning about what they’re doing. And finding these teachers often requires either luck, connections, or already having a certain level of knowledge. So, I’d say grab a hold of such a teacher if you can, but in the context of the article, just finding a teacher isn’t necessarily a net benefit; you should do everything you can do to learn outside of a teacher. (And I’d say that’s true even if you get a teacher.) Edit: I also meant to say, if you don’t know what you don’t know, finding a teacher isn’t necessarily easy. Getting started solo can really help you get an idea of what you don’t know and can aid in finding someone who knows those things.
gvurrdon 3y ago
Interesting. I learned bass guitar (fretless - I don't much like fretted bass) without a teacher, and did fairly well at it. I was able to get gigs etc. and play adequately at an amateur level. For learning double bass, later, a teacher was useful and perhaps even necessary. It is a physically harder instrument and direct feedback from someone in the same room watching me was very helpful. From a teaching perspective, I have taught fencing for over 30 years. One thing I notice with many students is that they lack the ability to use proprioception. They think they are doing the thing they are supposed to do, but cannot feel that their body isn't doing it. Unlike a YouTube video I can see this and let them know, and also suggest means by which they might get to their goal. Having said that, I had one student who did quite well studying YouTube videos during the pandemic when classes were suspended. That student still benefitted from coaching later, but it was more along the lines of refinement of existing skill rather than imparting the basics. In relation to videos, these are useful for improving fencing also. Students will often be surprised to see what they look like during a bout.
flippinburgers 3y ago
Self evaluating in this way really can push someone to the next level in a skill they are trying to learn! It seems especially effective when learning an instrument.

mtalantikite 3y ago

I think one of the issues is that there can be a significant gap in the level of teachers that you encounter. There are tons of teachers out there that are probably not much better, and maybe even worse, than going through people on YouTube, personal websites, online courses, etc. But then there are the truly masterful teachers in which the experience is on a whole different level, where the learning is beyond what you could do on your own. It's more on the level of a traditional guru, in the original sense of the word [1]. I've had both experiences, and I agree, in most cases a private teacher might not be worth it, but if you find the right person, it'll bring you way further than you ever could have gone on your own. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guru https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guru

cgriswald 3y ago
I agree. The right teacher can prune dead-end paths, quickly identify your weaknesses, provide you with tools and (importantly) explain their reasoning. They might also introduce you to more “meta” concepts and connections that you otherwise might have missed (which personally helps me stay interested and gain better mastery). If they can’t do that last bit, they’ll certainly help get you up to speed quickly, but you’ll be missing out on larger contextual understanding. That said, I’ve seen these types of teachers favor people who have shown themselves capable of learning and reasoning about what they’re doing. And finding these teachers often requires either luck, connections, or already having a certain level of knowledge. So, I’d say grab a hold of such a teacher if you can, but in the context of the article, just finding a teacher isn’t necessarily a net benefit; you should do everything you can do to learn outside of a teacher. (And I’d say that’s true even if you get a teacher.) Edit: I also meant to say, if you don’t know what you don’t know, finding a teacher isn’t necessarily easy. Getting started solo can really help you get an idea of what you don’t know and can aid in finding someone who knows those things.

gvurrdon 3y ago

Interesting. I learned bass guitar (fretless - I don't much like fretted bass) without a teacher, and did fairly well at it. I was able to get gigs etc. and play adequately at an amateur level. For learning double bass, later, a teacher was useful and perhaps even necessary. It is a physically harder instrument and direct feedback from someone in the same room watching me was very helpful. From a teaching perspective, I have taught fencing for over 30 years. One thing I notice with many students is that they lack the ability to use proprioception. They think they are doing the thing they are supposed to do, but cannot feel that their body isn't doing it. Unlike a YouTube video I can see this and let them know, and also suggest means by which they might get to their goal. Having said that, I had one student who did quite well studying YouTube videos during the pandemic when classes were suspended. That student still benefitted from coaching later, but it was more along the lines of refinement of existing skill rather than imparting the basics. In relation to videos, these are useful for improving fencing also. Students will often be surprised to see what they look like during a bout.

flippinburgers 3y ago

Self evaluating in this way really can push someone to the next level in a skill they are trying to learn! It seems especially effective when learning an instrument.