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My take is that with the rise of social media and online lives, people have things to fill their time with that are a placebo for real relationships. They work,

My take is that with the rise of social media and online lives, people have things to fill their time with that are a placebo for real relationships. They work, get home and then doom scroll or play games for 4 hours and go to bed. This eats into the time people used to spend socializing and meeting people in real life. The reduction in religion further eats into this as people would socialize at church, temple, etc. Adding to this is the incredible division between political parties and the social wars now that effectively narrow the options of a mate.

hospitalJail 3y ago
At least everything you mentioned was completely optional and there are tons of public places to meet people. Outdoor malls, hobbies, gym, parties, libraries, book stores, parks, heck ask chatgpt. F society who says you can't talk to strangers, those are losers. Say Hi, ask about jobs/hobbies, if they arent interested, you can tell from body language. Tell them it was nice talking to them and leave. They won't remember how you cold-opened, heck in 3 days they won't remember you at all.
- wonderwonder 3y ago
  Sure there are plenty of public places, church [I'm not religious] etc. though ensured you had something in common. Imagine being the attractive girl at the gym trying to work out and every time you go, 4 dudes come up and hit on you, day after day after day. Or the married woman that doesn't wear a ring just trying to grocery shop for her family and cant get down isle without being hit on. Parties and bars sure, I get it.
  - hospitalJail 3y ago
    Doesnt matter if they are attractive or just trying to grocery shop. You can still talk to people. I was at a wedding a few weeks ago, specifically looking for donors or entrepreneurial minded people. When I found out that a dude worked at Amazon Warehouse, I didn't turn around and walk away, I wrapped up the conversation and--- Oh my gosh this guy has a super cool hobby with a ton of skill. I got his phone number because this person and I might benefit from connecting later. Who knows. But more than half the conversations will flop, who cares. You and they lost a few minutes of life communicating, how terrible! Call it practicing social skills if you need to.
    - wonderwonder 3y ago
      Its not the initiator I am talking about, its the person getting hit on. Imagine having to deal with that all the time. I liken it to telemarketers. I get 4 a day sometimes, eventually I just tell them to F off in my moment of weakness because I am trying to just have focus time. Eventually the person being hit on every day will hit a breaking point and be rude, then she is labeled a bitch by that person and every time she goes to the gym she feels awkward because the dude she snapped at glares at her. Sometimes people just want to be left alone 95% of the time people at the gym want to be left alone. When I am out I have zero interest in talking to people. Nothing worse than being in the mall and a person walks up trying to sell me something. That's what people who hit on others in public are doing, trying to sell something, themselves in this case.
      - hospitalJail 3y ago
        This is almost entirely in your head. Just to be clear, I'm not saying to interrupt someone mid-run or talk to someone focused with ear-buds in. If someone is leaving the gym, you can say 'hey got a sec?', If they answer 'no', that is their answer. (Also, people who put makeup and tight pants on for the gym, are looking to be hit on. The people trying to be ignored, will put 0 effort into their appearance and will have a stare 100 ft in front of them. Even if you miss these signs, the worst thing that is going to happen is that you are turned down and they wasted 5 minutes. I'm sure the married people ITT had no issue interrupting these beautiful people's precious time. ) EDIT: If you need to, have a bonus reason for talking to someone: "I'm trying to find someone who knows nutrition for a nonprofit" or "I'm looking for a mechanical engineer for a product I'm thinking about".
        wonderwonder 3y ago
        "Also, people who put makeup and tight pants on for the gym, are looking to be hit on" This is very ignorant, and dangerously similar to saying people that are raped were asking for it because of the way they are dressed. Not at that level but very much victim blaming. So if someone does not want to be hit on they should do their best to look unattractive and unappealing otherwise they are asking for it? They should have to affect a 1000 yard stare as a signal not to get hit on, they cant just act normally? I am going to assume you are very young and have limited life experience. People like to look nice, for themselves. People should not have to live a certain way and dress a certain way to just be able to go into the world unmolested and unbothered. Ending this conversation now as I don't like your attitude towards women.
ivan_gammel 3y ago
Have a look at Israel with their incredibly high fertility rate among secular population. They have the same access to social media, games etc. What they also have is a set of family friendly policies, which make it easier for couples to plan their life and their careers. Culture and lifestyle also matters, of course. It will be interesting to see how living in densely populated urban area vs typical American suburbia affects your chances to meet a partner.
- lotsofpulp 3y ago
  Secular Israeli fertility rate does not seem materially higher. https://www.economist.com/middle-east-and-africa/2022/08/18/in-israel-birth-rates-are-converging-between-jews-and-muslims https://www.economist.com/middle-east-and-africa/2022/08/18/... https://archive.is/8FAsi/4ca20b298a776c0318c24337c475fa4dce0a2f3f.png https://archive.is/8FAsi/4ca20b298a776c0318c24337c475fa4dce0... https://www.taubcenter.org.il/en/research/israels-exceptional-fertility/ https://www.taubcenter.org.il/en/research/israels-exceptiona... >Though Haredim are just 13% of the population, their offspring make up 19% of Israeli children under the age of 14, and 24% of those under the age of four. >As can be seen, secular Jews are roughly at 2 children per woman and "religious" (but not Haredi) are at 4. Once again, other OECD countries are roughly between 1.0 and 1.7 and falling. And they, too, have a share of religious traditionalists.
  - ivan_gammel 3y ago
    My point is, excluding Haredi their fertility rate is high enough for population growth and it is significantly higher than in other developed countries even among secular population. Naïve hypotheses like above cannot explain that.
    - wonderwonder 3y ago
      Replacement fertility rate is 2.1. There is also a built in commonality in Israel as everyone has something in common, they are all jews. Your point of higher than most of the western world is very valid though but I wonder if the "we are all X here" lends itself to that.

hospitalJail 3y ago

At least everything you mentioned was completely optional and there are tons of public places to meet people. Outdoor malls, hobbies, gym, parties, libraries, book stores, parks, heck ask chatgpt. F society who says you can't talk to strangers, those are losers. Say Hi, ask about jobs/hobbies, if they arent interested, you can tell from body language. Tell them it was nice talking to them and leave. They won't remember how you cold-opened, heck in 3 days they won't remember you at all.

wonderwonder 3y ago
Sure there are plenty of public places, church [I'm not religious] etc. though ensured you had something in common. Imagine being the attractive girl at the gym trying to work out and every time you go, 4 dudes come up and hit on you, day after day after day. Or the married woman that doesn't wear a ring just trying to grocery shop for her family and cant get down isle without being hit on. Parties and bars sure, I get it.
- hospitalJail 3y ago
  Doesnt matter if they are attractive or just trying to grocery shop. You can still talk to people. I was at a wedding a few weeks ago, specifically looking for donors or entrepreneurial minded people. When I found out that a dude worked at Amazon Warehouse, I didn't turn around and walk away, I wrapped up the conversation and--- Oh my gosh this guy has a super cool hobby with a ton of skill. I got his phone number because this person and I might benefit from connecting later. Who knows. But more than half the conversations will flop, who cares. You and they lost a few minutes of life communicating, how terrible! Call it practicing social skills if you need to.
  - wonderwonder 3y ago
    Its not the initiator I am talking about, its the person getting hit on. Imagine having to deal with that all the time. I liken it to telemarketers. I get 4 a day sometimes, eventually I just tell them to F off in my moment of weakness because I am trying to just have focus time. Eventually the person being hit on every day will hit a breaking point and be rude, then she is labeled a bitch by that person and every time she goes to the gym she feels awkward because the dude she snapped at glares at her. Sometimes people just want to be left alone 95% of the time people at the gym want to be left alone. When I am out I have zero interest in talking to people. Nothing worse than being in the mall and a person walks up trying to sell me something. That's what people who hit on others in public are doing, trying to sell something, themselves in this case.
    - hospitalJail 3y ago
      This is almost entirely in your head. Just to be clear, I'm not saying to interrupt someone mid-run or talk to someone focused with ear-buds in. If someone is leaving the gym, you can say 'hey got a sec?', If they answer 'no', that is their answer. (Also, people who put makeup and tight pants on for the gym, are looking to be hit on. The people trying to be ignored, will put 0 effort into their appearance and will have a stare 100 ft in front of them. Even if you miss these signs, the worst thing that is going to happen is that you are turned down and they wasted 5 minutes. I'm sure the married people ITT had no issue interrupting these beautiful people's precious time. ) EDIT: If you need to, have a bonus reason for talking to someone: "I'm trying to find someone who knows nutrition for a nonprofit" or "I'm looking for a mechanical engineer for a product I'm thinking about".
      - wonderwonder 3y ago
        "Also, people who put makeup and tight pants on for the gym, are looking to be hit on" This is very ignorant, and dangerously similar to saying people that are raped were asking for it because of the way they are dressed. Not at that level but very much victim blaming. So if someone does not want to be hit on they should do their best to look unattractive and unappealing otherwise they are asking for it? They should have to affect a 1000 yard stare as a signal not to get hit on, they cant just act normally? I am going to assume you are very young and have limited life experience. People like to look nice, for themselves. People should not have to live a certain way and dress a certain way to just be able to go into the world unmolested and unbothered. Ending this conversation now as I don't like your attitude towards women.

ivan_gammel 3y ago

Have a look at Israel with their incredibly high fertility rate among secular population. They have the same access to social media, games etc. What they also have is a set of family friendly policies, which make it easier for couples to plan their life and their careers. Culture and lifestyle also matters, of course. It will be interesting to see how living in densely populated urban area vs typical American suburbia affects your chances to meet a partner.

lotsofpulp 3y ago
Secular Israeli fertility rate does not seem materially higher. https://www.economist.com/middle-east-and-africa/2022/08/18/in-israel-birth-rates-are-converging-between-jews-and-muslims https://www.economist.com/middle-east-and-africa/2022/08/18/... https://archive.is/8FAsi/4ca20b298a776c0318c24337c475fa4dce0a2f3f.png https://archive.is/8FAsi/4ca20b298a776c0318c24337c475fa4dce0... https://www.taubcenter.org.il/en/research/israels-exceptional-fertility/ https://www.taubcenter.org.il/en/research/israels-exceptiona... >Though Haredim are just 13% of the population, their offspring make up 19% of Israeli children under the age of 14, and 24% of those under the age of four. >As can be seen, secular Jews are roughly at 2 children per woman and "religious" (but not Haredi) are at 4. Once again, other OECD countries are roughly between 1.0 and 1.7 and falling. And they, too, have a share of religious traditionalists.
- ivan_gammel 3y ago
  My point is, excluding Haredi their fertility rate is high enough for population growth and it is significantly higher than in other developed countries even among secular population. Naïve hypotheses like above cannot explain that.
  - wonderwonder 3y ago
    Replacement fertility rate is 2.1. There is also a built in commonality in Israel as everyone has something in common, they are all jews. Your point of higher than most of the western world is very valid though but I wonder if the "we are all X here" lends itself to that.