3 ms·

Because Ukraine is a democratic state/western ally being invaded by it's much bigger and meaner neighbor and will cease to exist if we do not help them defend t

Because Ukraine is a democratic state/western ally being invaded by it's much bigger and meaner neighbor and will cease to exist if we do not help them defend themselves. We don't have to give them to Ukraine, but doing so generally furthers our interests.

qbasic_forever 3y ago
Is Ukraine actually a democracy right now? Last I read all of Zelensky's opposition parties were arrested and made illegal. https://www.npr.org/2022/07/08/1110577439/zelenskyy-has-consolidated-ukraines-tv-outlets-and-dissolved-rival-political-par https://www.npr.org/2022/07/08/1110577439/zelenskyy-has-cons...
- ceejayoz 3y ago
  This a misreading. Specific pro-Russian parties were. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_parties_in_Ukraine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_parties_in_Ukraine > On 20 March 2022, President Volodymyr Zelensky announced a ban on 11 political parties for ties with Russia: Opposition Platform — For Life, Party of Shariy, Nashi, Opposition Bloc, Left Opposition, Union of Leftists, Derzhava, Progressive Socialist Party of Ukraine, Socialist Party of Ukraine, Socialists Party and Volodymyr Saldo Bloc. Quite a few other parties remain in Parliament: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_parties_in_Ukraine#Political_parties_in_Parliament https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_parties_in_Ukraine#P... Given history - one such party helped Russia take Crimea in 2014, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Unity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Unity - that seems reasonably prudent in the pursuit of still being able to be a proper democracy in the future.
  - qbasic_forever 3y ago
    But if the people vote for a party, should they not be allowed to be in power? I mean that is the definition of democracy, right? The people in Donbas, Crimea, etc. voted for many of these claimed pro Russian parties.
    - ceejayoz 3y ago
      No, during a war and martial law, it’s best not to let enemy sympathizers run your government. No one gets free elections if Russia annexes you. Democracy isn’t a suicide pact; you don’t have to let Hitlers take power in a crisis. Ukrainian law provides for martial law, and their Supreme Court upheld the bans. That’s democracy functioning too.
      - qbasic_forever 3y ago
        [flagged]
- x3874 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - murkt 3y ago
    > Ukraine is a democracy the same way that Vietnam or Iraq or Kosovo are a democracy. Says who exactly? Ukraine’s democracy is by no means perfect, but it’s not an autocracy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Economist_Democracy_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Economist_Democracy_Index places Ukraine much higher on the list than Iraq or Vietnam. Couldn’t find Kosovo there.
    - x3874 3y ago
      Ukraine disposed of an regularly elected president, and is instead steered now by an ex-comedian who danced for the stars.

qbasic_forever 3y ago

Is Ukraine actually a democracy right now? Last I read all of Zelensky's opposition parties were arrested and made illegal. https://www.npr.org/2022/07/08/1110577439/zelenskyy-has-consolidated-ukraines-tv-outlets-and-dissolved-rival-political-par https://www.npr.org/2022/07/08/1110577439/zelenskyy-has-cons...

ceejayoz 3y ago
This a misreading. Specific pro-Russian parties were. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_parties_in_Ukraine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_parties_in_Ukraine > On 20 March 2022, President Volodymyr Zelensky announced a ban on 11 political parties for ties with Russia: Opposition Platform — For Life, Party of Shariy, Nashi, Opposition Bloc, Left Opposition, Union of Leftists, Derzhava, Progressive Socialist Party of Ukraine, Socialist Party of Ukraine, Socialists Party and Volodymyr Saldo Bloc. Quite a few other parties remain in Parliament: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_parties_in_Ukraine#Political_parties_in_Parliament https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_parties_in_Ukraine#P... Given history - one such party helped Russia take Crimea in 2014, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Unity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Unity - that seems reasonably prudent in the pursuit of still being able to be a proper democracy in the future.
- qbasic_forever 3y ago
  But if the people vote for a party, should they not be allowed to be in power? I mean that is the definition of democracy, right? The people in Donbas, Crimea, etc. voted for many of these claimed pro Russian parties.
  - ceejayoz 3y ago
    No, during a war and martial law, it’s best not to let enemy sympathizers run your government. No one gets free elections if Russia annexes you. Democracy isn’t a suicide pact; you don’t have to let Hitlers take power in a crisis. Ukrainian law provides for martial law, and their Supreme Court upheld the bans. That’s democracy functioning too.
    - qbasic_forever 3y ago
      [flagged]
x3874 3y ago
[flagged]
- murkt 3y ago
  > Ukraine is a democracy the same way that Vietnam or Iraq or Kosovo are a democracy. Says who exactly? Ukraine’s democracy is by no means perfect, but it’s not an autocracy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Economist_Democracy_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Economist_Democracy_Index places Ukraine much higher on the list than Iraq or Vietnam. Couldn’t find Kosovo there.
  - x3874 3y ago
    Ukraine disposed of an regularly elected president, and is instead steered now by an ex-comedian who danced for the stars.