3 ms·

> But they didn't and now Russia gets to play the "same shit, different hegemon" card and instead of the entire world pushing back against the invasion of Ukrai

by _kbh_ 3y ago

> But they didn't and now Russia gets to play the "same shit, different hegemon" card and instead of the entire world pushing back against the invasion of Ukraine, it's just ~40 of the US's closest allies. The rest of the world doesn't care. The UN is a pretty good map of how the world feels about the war I feel. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_General_Assembly_Resolution_ES-11/1#:~:text=The%20resolution%20was%20sponsored%20by,5%20against%2C%20and%2035%20abstentions https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_General_Assem.... 77.90% of UN members voted for it, a handle of nations outside of Russia voted against it. Not even Russias apparent biggest ally (China) voted against it they abstained instead.

pydry 3y ago
UN resolutions are not a good gauge of anything much. * They are nonbinding, so they are purely symbolic. * Countries lean on each other all the time to vote one way or another. Especially hegemons. * Only 50% of those countries are even nominally run by democratic governments. * Most governments hate secessionism on principle (whether democratic or not), which is reflected in the votes, but I doubt, say, the average Spaniard is especially bothered about Kosovo or Scotland's independence. It bothers the Spanish government though because Catalonia.
- _kbh_ 3y ago
  I think they are a great gauge of sentiment for exactly the first reason you pointed out. > * They are nonbinding, so they are purely symbolic. So then why didn't more of Russias allies vote for Russia and why did so much of the world vote for Ukraine?.
  - dragonwriter 3y ago
    > So then why didn't more of Russias allies vote for Russia and why did so much of the world vote for Ukraine?. Except for Belarus (and despite the appearance given by the existence of the CSTO) I don’t think Russia substantively has allies.
  - pydry 3y ago
    They abstained, probably because of a combination of being leaned on by both sides and, broadly speaking, a desire not to endorse secessionism. As I mentioned. You did read what I wrote, right? It mirrors this map: https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:State_positions_Iraq_war.svg https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:State_positions_Ir... Where, again, the distribution of opinions is more easily explained by "we don't generally want to endorse invasions as a concept, because we're afraid of them" and "we got leaned on". Although the UN vote was presented as an unequivocal condemnation of Ukraine invasion, the condemnation of the invasion actually came from countries representing just over 40% of the world's population. The % of the world population that sanctioned Russia (i.e. that made a gesture that involved sacrifice) was smaller still.
    - _kbh_ 3y ago
      > It mirrors this map: I dunno if you've even looked at both maps they look nothing like each other. The support for the resolution for Russia to leave Ukraine has far more support then the invasion of Iraq and even has large amounts of support amongst people with didn't support the invasion of Iraq. > Although the UN vote was presented as an unequivocal condemnation of Ukraine invasion, the condemnation of the invasion actually came from countries representing just over 40% of the world's population. Yeah and what percentage of the population voted against it?, im gonna guess without even really googling that is <3% of world population.
      - pydry 3y ago
        >The support for the resolution for Russia to leave Ukraine has far more support then the invasion of Iraq Duh. It mirrors because the support America could muster for its invasion was not much more than the support Russia mustered for its invasion. This was also when America was at the height of its power and could cajole and bully other countries more easily. >Yeah and what percentage of the population voted against it? Probably a similar order of magnitude that supported the invasion of Iraq (in spite of furious and enormous protests for doing so).
        3y ago

by _kbh_ 3y ago

pydry 3y ago

UN resolutions are not a good gauge of anything much. * They are nonbinding, so they are purely symbolic. * Countries lean on each other all the time to vote one way or another. Especially hegemons. * Only 50% of those countries are even nominally run by democratic governments. * Most governments hate secessionism on principle (whether democratic or not), which is reflected in the votes, but I doubt, say, the average Spaniard is especially bothered about Kosovo or Scotland's independence. It bothers the Spanish government though because Catalonia.

_kbh_ 3y ago
I think they are a great gauge of sentiment for exactly the first reason you pointed out. > * They are nonbinding, so they are purely symbolic. So then why didn't more of Russias allies vote for Russia and why did so much of the world vote for Ukraine?.
- dragonwriter 3y ago
  > So then why didn't more of Russias allies vote for Russia and why did so much of the world vote for Ukraine?. Except for Belarus (and despite the appearance given by the existence of the CSTO) I don’t think Russia substantively has allies.
- pydry 3y ago
  They abstained, probably because of a combination of being leaned on by both sides and, broadly speaking, a desire not to endorse secessionism. As I mentioned. You did read what I wrote, right? It mirrors this map: https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:State_positions_Iraq_war.svg https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:State_positions_Ir... Where, again, the distribution of opinions is more easily explained by "we don't generally want to endorse invasions as a concept, because we're afraid of them" and "we got leaned on". Although the UN vote was presented as an unequivocal condemnation of Ukraine invasion, the condemnation of the invasion actually came from countries representing just over 40% of the world's population. The % of the world population that sanctioned Russia (i.e. that made a gesture that involved sacrifice) was smaller still.
  - _kbh_ 3y ago
    > It mirrors this map: I dunno if you've even looked at both maps they look nothing like each other. The support for the resolution for Russia to leave Ukraine has far more support then the invasion of Iraq and even has large amounts of support amongst people with didn't support the invasion of Iraq. > Although the UN vote was presented as an unequivocal condemnation of Ukraine invasion, the condemnation of the invasion actually came from countries representing just over 40% of the world's population. Yeah and what percentage of the population voted against it?, im gonna guess without even really googling that is <3% of world population.
    - pydry 3y ago
      >The support for the resolution for Russia to leave Ukraine has far more support then the invasion of Iraq Duh. It mirrors because the support America could muster for its invasion was not much more than the support Russia mustered for its invasion. This was also when America was at the height of its power and could cajole and bully other countries more easily. >Yeah and what percentage of the population voted against it? Probably a similar order of magnitude that supported the invasion of Iraq (in spite of furious and enormous protests for doing so).
      - 3y ago