3 ms·

> But the scale is different, that's what people like you are refusing to see. Our main disagreement seems to be the scale of the civilian casualties (and othe

> But the scale is different, that's what people like you are refusing to see. Our main disagreement seems to be the scale of the civilian casualties (and other war crimes, which is of course in proportion to that). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War#IBC_table_of_violent_civilian_deaths https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War#IBC... lists 12,152 for 2003 and 11,737 for 2004. With the caveat that: > Gaps in recording and reporting suggest that even our highest totals to date may be missing many civilian deaths from violence So, for first year and a half of hostilities, we can expect that the lower bound to be between 17k and 18k. The confirmed civilian casualties in Ukraine since February 2022 are around 9k: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine#Casualties https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine#Ca... (and of these, only ~4100 are due to Russian attacks. Compare with the Iraq war, were US civilians were thousands of km away from the frontlines) https://www.ohchr.org/en/news/2023/06/ukraine-civilian-casualty-update-19-june-2023 https://www.ohchr.org/en/news/2023/06/ukraine-civilian-casua... The actual numbers are of course higher than the confirmed numbers (again: lower bounds in both cases), but it's within the same order of magnitude. Moreover, take into account the fact that Iraq had a population of 25M in 2003, vs Ukraine that has a population of 45M. You might not be aware of it, but I've seen people genuinely argue that Russia has been exceedingly careful in trying to only strike military targets, and that's why the "civilian casualties rate is so low, compared to other conflicts". I hope that's true, but I think that it's premature to draw any conclusions about that, because the fog of war still means that there's huge uncertainty in the actual numbers (it could even be as high as, or slightly worse than in Iraq).

_kbh_ 3y ago
You must of missed the part where I was specifically talking about sexual violence. I know that civilian causalities are high for both sides. The difference as I said before is that Russia and uses much more sexual violence and torture. Russia rate of sexual violence and torture is off the charts. You had to go back decades just to find a single case of something close to comparable in the US army. > You might not be aware of it, but I've seen people genuinely argue that Russia has been exceedingly careful in trying to only strike military targets, and that's why the "civilian casualties rate is so low, compared to other conflicts". Russia specifically targets civilian targets, when a PGM levels a shopping mall or a cafe it’s not an accident. The truth is exactly the opposite of what you’re claiming. > (it could even be as high as, or slightly worse than in Iraq). It’s likely much worse than Iraq with Russia the cruelty is the point.
- boffinAudio 3y ago
  The US specifically targets civilians, too. The moral authority you claim doesn't exist. Mosul, Raqqa, Damascus. Just a few easily-remembered examples. Did you not pay attention?
  - berdario 3y ago
    Exactly, moreover... His comment > I was specifically talking about sexual violence. Makes it clear that he tried to move the discussion away from recognizing civilian suffering and opposing the countries which oppressed most of the world with their military force first... Towards just trying to make a case for Russia to be "more brutal", regardless of factual accuracy. For some people, stoking outrage takes priority. It's not the first time that the propaganda is trying to scaremonger about a "horde from the east": https://redsails.org/hordes-of-rapists https://redsails.org/hordes-of-rapists
    - _kbh_ 3y ago
      > Makes it clear that he tried to move the discussion away from recognizing civilian suffering and opposing the countries which oppressed most of the world with their military force first... Towards just trying to make a case for Russia to be "more brutal", regardless of factual accuracy. For some people, stoking outrage takes priority. More so that im trying to concentrate the discussion on the brutality of the Russian army instead of the abject apathy that the Americans have for civilians causalities. > It's not the first time that the propaganda is trying to scaremonger about a "horde from the east": If you want to keep defending a country that rapes and tortures children go ahead, but know that you're aligning yourself with the new monsters of Europe and I hope you're okay with that. I guess people supported nazis in WW2 so I shouldn't be surprised that people are supporting the Russians now.
      - boffinAudio 3y ago
        > concentrate the discussion on the brutality of the Russian army instead If you think what the American military did to Mosul and Raqqa is not an utter brutality, there is no hope for your further arguments of moral authority. The fact is that the US' military is more vile and brutal than its captive civilian population is capable of admitting, or even understanding - since those same brutes own your media industry and will never show you what they did, almost every day since 2003, to utterly innocent human beings. Cultures that Americas' war-criminal class have deemed inferior - on the basis of racial or religious assumed authority, have been suffering miserably for decades because people such as yourself make excuses for the heinous crimes committed in your name, instead of informing yourself as to the truth and nature of the magnitude of those crimes. Russia is bad, very bad - but it has a long, long way to go to catch up to the depravity and calamity that the US visits on innocent people, every twenty minutes for twenty years. It matters not one iota to the fathers and mothers digging their children out from under the piles of smouldering rubble left across the landscape, if you think your forces are 'the ethical ones'. You'd know that if you'd taken the time to really, really understand the victims of your state, which are only there because of your own ignorance and failure to reign in your own war criminals as a responsible citizen. Perhaps you profit from the war machine. This is another reason why people think their war machine is better/more moral than any other war machine, but here's a clue: there are no moral war machines, no ethical war machines, no war machine with a more 'divine purpose set by God'. There are only humanity-destroying apparatus, which exist purely because citizens are too lazy or cowardly to confront their war mongers and send them off to The Hague to rot in chains where they belong. Putin can sit there to rot too - right alongside Clinton and Bush and Biden and Obama and Trump - where they all truly, truly belong. But I assure you, Putins' crimes pale into insignificance when it comes to his peers. You better inform yourself, better.
boffinAudio 3y ago
Wikipedia is not a good source of the casualty data of America's wars, as it is highly censored and intelligence goons pay a lot of attention to this fact, since the American people must be lulled into complacency over their wars in order to support them, and if they knew the real truth there'd no trillion-dollar yearly budget for yet more, endless war. Iraq lost 5% of its population to American war aggression. Just ask the doctors: https://psr.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/body-count.pdf https://psr.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/body-count.pdf Note that this report is 10 years old now, and the statistics have gotten far worse. The deleterious effect of depleted uranium on the birth-rate of the population is there for all and sundry to observe ..

_kbh_ 3y ago

You must of missed the part where I was specifically talking about sexual violence. I know that civilian causalities are high for both sides. The difference as I said before is that Russia and uses much more sexual violence and torture. Russia rate of sexual violence and torture is off the charts. You had to go back decades just to find a single case of something close to comparable in the US army. > You might not be aware of it, but I've seen people genuinely argue that Russia has been exceedingly careful in trying to only strike military targets, and that's why the "civilian casualties rate is so low, compared to other conflicts". Russia specifically targets civilian targets, when a PGM levels a shopping mall or a cafe it’s not an accident. The truth is exactly the opposite of what you’re claiming. > (it could even be as high as, or slightly worse than in Iraq). It’s likely much worse than Iraq with Russia the cruelty is the point.

boffinAudio 3y ago
The US specifically targets civilians, too. The moral authority you claim doesn't exist. Mosul, Raqqa, Damascus. Just a few easily-remembered examples. Did you not pay attention?
- berdario 3y ago
  Exactly, moreover... His comment > I was specifically talking about sexual violence. Makes it clear that he tried to move the discussion away from recognizing civilian suffering and opposing the countries which oppressed most of the world with their military force first... Towards just trying to make a case for Russia to be "more brutal", regardless of factual accuracy. For some people, stoking outrage takes priority. It's not the first time that the propaganda is trying to scaremonger about a "horde from the east": https://redsails.org/hordes-of-rapists https://redsails.org/hordes-of-rapists
  - _kbh_ 3y ago
    > Makes it clear that he tried to move the discussion away from recognizing civilian suffering and opposing the countries which oppressed most of the world with their military force first... Towards just trying to make a case for Russia to be "more brutal", regardless of factual accuracy. For some people, stoking outrage takes priority. More so that im trying to concentrate the discussion on the brutality of the Russian army instead of the abject apathy that the Americans have for civilians causalities. > It's not the first time that the propaganda is trying to scaremonger about a "horde from the east": If you want to keep defending a country that rapes and tortures children go ahead, but know that you're aligning yourself with the new monsters of Europe and I hope you're okay with that. I guess people supported nazis in WW2 so I shouldn't be surprised that people are supporting the Russians now.
    - boffinAudio 3y ago
      > concentrate the discussion on the brutality of the Russian army instead If you think what the American military did to Mosul and Raqqa is not an utter brutality, there is no hope for your further arguments of moral authority. The fact is that the US' military is more vile and brutal than its captive civilian population is capable of admitting, or even understanding - since those same brutes own your media industry and will never show you what they did, almost every day since 2003, to utterly innocent human beings. Cultures that Americas' war-criminal class have deemed inferior - on the basis of racial or religious assumed authority, have been suffering miserably for decades because people such as yourself make excuses for the heinous crimes committed in your name, instead of informing yourself as to the truth and nature of the magnitude of those crimes. Russia is bad, very bad - but it has a long, long way to go to catch up to the depravity and calamity that the US visits on innocent people, every twenty minutes for twenty years. It matters not one iota to the fathers and mothers digging their children out from under the piles of smouldering rubble left across the landscape, if you think your forces are 'the ethical ones'. You'd know that if you'd taken the time to really, really understand the victims of your state, which are only there because of your own ignorance and failure to reign in your own war criminals as a responsible citizen. Perhaps you profit from the war machine. This is another reason why people think their war machine is better/more moral than any other war machine, but here's a clue: there are no moral war machines, no ethical war machines, no war machine with a more 'divine purpose set by God'. There are only humanity-destroying apparatus, which exist purely because citizens are too lazy or cowardly to confront their war mongers and send them off to The Hague to rot in chains where they belong. Putin can sit there to rot too - right alongside Clinton and Bush and Biden and Obama and Trump - where they all truly, truly belong. But I assure you, Putins' crimes pale into insignificance when it comes to his peers. You better inform yourself, better.

boffinAudio 3y ago

Wikipedia is not a good source of the casualty data of America's wars, as it is highly censored and intelligence goons pay a lot of attention to this fact, since the American people must be lulled into complacency over their wars in order to support them, and if they knew the real truth there'd no trillion-dollar yearly budget for yet more, endless war. Iraq lost 5% of its population to American war aggression. Just ask the doctors: https://psr.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/body-count.pdf https://psr.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/body-count.pdf Note that this report is 10 years old now, and the statistics have gotten far worse. The deleterious effect of depleted uranium on the birth-rate of the population is there for all and sundry to observe ..