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Yup. The West doesn't understand (and never has understood) the East. Even at the levers of power, it's often shocking how little people know. Russia understand

Yup. The West doesn't understand (and never has understood) the East. Even at the levers of power, it's often shocking how little people know. Russia understands this, which is why their propaganda is so effective. Poland, Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia and Ukraine have been warning the "West" for decades, to deaf ears. And still today, their warnings go unheeded.

Enk1du 3y ago
Funny that. In Farley Mowat's "Sibir" (1970), he reports a conversation with a Siberian Russian explaining the difference between the two superpowers like so "In the USSR, our propaganda is poor and we don't believe it at all. In America, your propaganda is very good ..." with the _and you believe it_ left for the listener to fill in. I suppose the culture of samizdat gives you a bit of perspective on controlling naratives.
- pydry 3y ago
  Closed off societies don't need sophisticated propaganda because the competition is blocked off. One of the things that struck me about propaganda in North Korea was that it was incredibly unsophisticated. It was like watching 1950s adverts. Glasnost produced an opening for the most sophisticated western tactics to be applied in the Soviet Union and it was used to maximal effect. Russia has recognized the shortcomings and has adapted. Their propaganda is pretty much every bit as sophisticated as ours these days. Enough to cause Congress to have conniptions.
  - H8crilA 3y ago
    Today's Russian propaganda is entirely different from Soviet propaganda. It creates a depoliticized society by generating as many incompatible statements as they can and blasting that from every tube. This is a lot more advanced than western propaganda. Russia today is actually already "in the future", some of the patterns we can see in democracies are fully rolled out there. Tim Snyder often says that this is why Russia is interesting analytically. Soviet propaganda pretended that black is white, while Russian propaganda will essentially try to convince the listener that colors cannot be assigned to any object whatsoever.
    - mandmandam 3y ago
      > This is a lot more advanced than western propaganda. Friend, you've never heard of Chomsky. This isn't your field of expertise. Consider avoiding sweeping statements like that. Because they're very, very wrong. US propaganda is like the water a fish swims in, so that they don't recognize what wetness is.
      - H8crilA 3y ago
        I mean I actually watch Russian propaganda, as well as various other propaganda sources. It's rather clear what they're doing, and fully consistent with citizen behavior. Remember how just a few days ago Wagner took control of a 1M city, and citizens didn't care whatsoever? The same patterns can be observed in the West, but to a much weaker degree. BTW, I'm not American in case this matters. One way to explain it is that institutions (universities, courts of law, scientific research, parliaments) are not trusted by some (growing) number of people here. In Russia nobody believes in any institutions whatsoever, for example if the FSB rackets your business and takes over your apartment, well that's just part of life (complete lack of belief in any justice system). Like they won't even try to resist in any way. Another way to explain the difference: there is no there there in modern Russian propaganda. It comes from absolutely nothing, no consistent philosophical system, no consistent policy, be it foreign or domestic, no consistent support or rejection of particular people or organizations. Should they lose the war then propaganda will just say that Ukraine is now denazified (if this term lasts that long), and will pretend like nothing bad happened, while on the next day will scream about how NATO is trying to kill Russia, then on the third day will pretend the topic doesn't exist, and so on and so on, without any pattern or rhythm.
        mandmandam 3y ago
        > The same patterns can be observed in the West, but to a much weaker degree. Oh? America spent 20 trillion of tax payers money, killed hundreds of thousands of citizens in the Middle East, displaced tens of millions, killed millions more through sanctions, secured Iraq and Afghanistan's oil fields within weeks of invasion, created black sites all over the world to torture people without trial, murdered Reuters journalists in cold blood, tortured whistleblowers who provided proof of the above, and managed to blame the state of Afghanistan on the Afghani people after they botched the withdrawal. And if you bring this up in comparison to what Russia has done (which is bad, yes), you're accused of whataboutism. That's propaganda baby.
nullindividual 3y ago
> The West doesn't understand (and never has understood) the East. I'm glad you brought that up. (Western) Russians look to be 'everything European' yet don't act like it. It wasn't until I watched this extended interview with Julia Ioffe on Frontline [0] did I go... this is brilliant! This finally made me understand that, no, they're not like us nor will they be. Her retelling was apt. Start watching at 32:37 [1] for the context of the quote. "[...] would be easier to understand Russians if they were just purple, because it was in fact confusing to Westerners, to Europeans and to Americans to deal with Russians who look European, who look white, and you expect them to act like Westerners like white Western Europeans, when in fact they are quite different and wired quite differently and have quite different cultural expectations and wiring [...]" I strongly suggest watching the entire interview (along with the rest of the Frontline interviews that don't make it into the show). [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEu0oRajJxE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEu0oRajJxE [1] https://youtu.be/qEu0oRajJxE?t=1957 https://youtu.be/qEu0oRajJxE?t=1957

Enk1du 3y ago

Funny that. In Farley Mowat's "Sibir" (1970), he reports a conversation with a Siberian Russian explaining the difference between the two superpowers like so "In the USSR, our propaganda is poor and we don't believe it at all. In America, your propaganda is very good ..." with the _and you believe it_ left for the listener to fill in. I suppose the culture of samizdat gives you a bit of perspective on controlling naratives.

pydry 3y ago
Closed off societies don't need sophisticated propaganda because the competition is blocked off. One of the things that struck me about propaganda in North Korea was that it was incredibly unsophisticated. It was like watching 1950s adverts. Glasnost produced an opening for the most sophisticated western tactics to be applied in the Soviet Union and it was used to maximal effect. Russia has recognized the shortcomings and has adapted. Their propaganda is pretty much every bit as sophisticated as ours these days. Enough to cause Congress to have conniptions.
- H8crilA 3y ago
  Today's Russian propaganda is entirely different from Soviet propaganda. It creates a depoliticized society by generating as many incompatible statements as they can and blasting that from every tube. This is a lot more advanced than western propaganda. Russia today is actually already "in the future", some of the patterns we can see in democracies are fully rolled out there. Tim Snyder often says that this is why Russia is interesting analytically. Soviet propaganda pretended that black is white, while Russian propaganda will essentially try to convince the listener that colors cannot be assigned to any object whatsoever.
  - mandmandam 3y ago
    > This is a lot more advanced than western propaganda. Friend, you've never heard of Chomsky. This isn't your field of expertise. Consider avoiding sweeping statements like that. Because they're very, very wrong. US propaganda is like the water a fish swims in, so that they don't recognize what wetness is.
    - H8crilA 3y ago
      I mean I actually watch Russian propaganda, as well as various other propaganda sources. It's rather clear what they're doing, and fully consistent with citizen behavior. Remember how just a few days ago Wagner took control of a 1M city, and citizens didn't care whatsoever? The same patterns can be observed in the West, but to a much weaker degree. BTW, I'm not American in case this matters. One way to explain it is that institutions (universities, courts of law, scientific research, parliaments) are not trusted by some (growing) number of people here. In Russia nobody believes in any institutions whatsoever, for example if the FSB rackets your business and takes over your apartment, well that's just part of life (complete lack of belief in any justice system). Like they won't even try to resist in any way. Another way to explain the difference: there is no there there in modern Russian propaganda. It comes from absolutely nothing, no consistent philosophical system, no consistent policy, be it foreign or domestic, no consistent support or rejection of particular people or organizations. Should they lose the war then propaganda will just say that Ukraine is now denazified (if this term lasts that long), and will pretend like nothing bad happened, while on the next day will scream about how NATO is trying to kill Russia, then on the third day will pretend the topic doesn't exist, and so on and so on, without any pattern or rhythm.
      - mandmandam 3y ago
        > The same patterns can be observed in the West, but to a much weaker degree. Oh? America spent 20 trillion of tax payers money, killed hundreds of thousands of citizens in the Middle East, displaced tens of millions, killed millions more through sanctions, secured Iraq and Afghanistan's oil fields within weeks of invasion, created black sites all over the world to torture people without trial, murdered Reuters journalists in cold blood, tortured whistleblowers who provided proof of the above, and managed to blame the state of Afghanistan on the Afghani people after they botched the withdrawal. And if you bring this up in comparison to what Russia has done (which is bad, yes), you're accused of whataboutism. That's propaganda baby.

nullindividual 3y ago

> The West doesn't understand (and never has understood) the East. I'm glad you brought that up. (Western) Russians look to be 'everything European' yet don't act like it. It wasn't until I watched this extended interview with Julia Ioffe on Frontline [0] did I go... this is brilliant! This finally made me understand that, no, they're not like us nor will they be. Her retelling was apt. Start watching at 32:37 [1] for the context of the quote. "[...] would be easier to understand Russians if they were just purple, because it was in fact confusing to Westerners, to Europeans and to Americans to deal with Russians who look European, who look white, and you expect them to act like Westerners like white Western Europeans, when in fact they are quite different and wired quite differently and have quite different cultural expectations and wiring [...]" I strongly suggest watching the entire interview (along with the rest of the Frontline interviews that don't make it into the show). [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEu0oRajJxE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEu0oRajJxE [1] https://youtu.be/qEu0oRajJxE?t=1957 https://youtu.be/qEu0oRajJxE?t=1957