3 ms·

Why don’t they just release the source code and schematics for the voting machines and related systems? Why do they insist on only allowing a select number of p

Why don’t they just release the source code and schematics for the voting machines and related systems? Why do they insist on only allowing a select number of professionals, picked by finger whom have to sign an NDA to audit the system? Please note that I’m not claiming fraud here but the sheer arrogance of the Brazilian government in positioning themselves as a source of truth. “It’s safe because I say so”. Am I being unreasonable? Here is a decade spanning thread of the Brazilian government trying to convince Mozilla to accept their super CA audited by… themselves: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=438825 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=438825 So just open source it and add a feature citizens can verify the firmware. It will shut up the rightoids or any future sore losers of course but it will also bring the attention to every field related researcher on the planet to find the ugly vulnerabilities and shitty software quality and they don’t want that. And why the hell something that decides the future of a country the side of Brazil is closed source and kept in secrecy? No other reason than conceiving a terrible job I would say but while I’m assuming incompetence I can’t also blame whoever claims foul.

cassianoleal 3y ago
Let me begin by saying that I wholeheartedly agree the they should open-source it, not only the source code, but perhaps the hardware designs as well. > “It’s safe because I say so”. That's not quite the case. There are members from different parts of society, including regular civilians, who audit the system. Moreover, the political parties (the most interested parties in this whole thing, arguably after the general public) all have representatives who can audit the system. O procurador regional eleitoral deve indicar, então, um representante do Ministério Público para acompanhar os trabalhos da comissão. Os partidos políticos, as coligações, a Ordem dos Advogados do Brasil (OAB), o Congresso Nacional, o Supremo Tribunal Federal (STF), a Controladoria-Geral da União (CGU), o Departamento de Polícia Federal, a Sociedade Brasileira de Computação (SBC), o Conselho Federal de Engenharia e Agronomia (Confea) e os departamentos de Tecnologia da Informação de universidades também podem indicar representantes para acompanhar os trabalhos do grupo. Loosely translated: The regional electoral attorney must indicate a representative of the Ministério Público [0] to follow the works of the committee. The political parties, the alliances, the Order of Attorneys of Brazil (OAB), the National Congress, the Supreme Federal Court (STF), the Controladoria Geral da União (CGU), the Federal Police Department, the Brazilian Society of Computing (SBC), the Federal Council of Engineering and Agronomy (Confea) and the IT departments of universities may also indicate representatives to follow the works of the group. [0] Similar to the USA's State Department, if I'm not mistaken [1] Not sure what would be an equivalent. They're a Government organ responsible for taking care of public patrimony, provide transparency, fight corruption and other things Link: https://www.tse.jus.br/comunicacao/noticias/2020/Dezembro/veja-como-funciona-a-auditoria-de-funcionamento-das-urnas-eletronicas https://www.tse.jus.br/comunicacao/noticias/2020/Dezembro/ve... So you see, there's a lot of space for people from outside of the Government, the Electoral Court and the political system in general to take part in the audit proceedings. I personally know someone who has followed the audit process. He's also fighting for opening up the source code but has vouched for it. In fact, one of his arguments for opening up is precisely the fact that the audits have all come out well (with observations for improvements).
- vulcan01 3y ago
  You forgot to add your "[1]" footnote, but based on your description the equivalent would probably be the US's Government Accountability Office.
  - cassianoleal 3y ago
    Thanks, I didn't forget but because I only pressed return once it's inline with [0]. I'll update it for better formatting and with this new information.
- irusensei 3y ago
  > That's not quite the case. > Proceeds to mention the few government and government related entities that can audit the system. > I know someone... ...
  - cassianoleal 3y ago
    Is there a point to this?
    - irusensei 3y ago
      Yes. The fact that you didnt dispelled any of my critics about independent auditing. None of those institutions operate outside of the government sphere of influence (even private universities). In the end you just said "it's safe because they told us so... and by the way I know a guy". Seriously I'm appalled if you think your arguments are reasonable. That's a very classic brazilian response, to have trust and faith in the smart people doing the work for you. It's probably a scar from the times of dictatorship. I don't trust. I want to verify.
      - cassianoleal 3y ago
        Despite your disrespectful and prejudiced response, I will try to address some of your criticism. > I don't trust. I want to verify. Please re-read the very first sentence in my original comment. Hopefully uou'll see that we agree in this point. > None of those institutions operate outside of the government sphere of influence No one is outside of the government's sphere of influence. What that committe is, is a reunion of many different organisations with different points of view and participation of people from all levels of society. I would hope that you don't think Bolsonaro's PL and the PCdoB (Communist Party of Brazil) both have the same interest in defrauding the elections or letting a bad system stay in place. SBC, Confea and the universities all have regular people, some of whom any one of us know, are or have worked or studied with. That's where the "someone I know" anecdote comes in. I'm not saying anyone should believe or trust this random person who's an aquantaince of another random person on an Internet forum. It's just an anecdote to illustrate a point. There's no need to be rude about it. > Seriously I'm appalled if you think your arguments are reasonable. That's your prerrogative, I have no power over what appals you. > That's a very classic brazilian response This is prejudiced and offensive. Please refrain from this kind of comment. > to have trust and faith in the smart people doing the work for you. Not my point, but please tell me how much auditing and verification you do on every single other aspect of your life. Or do you trust people "smart people" to, I don't know, write your banking software? The e-commerce websites you buy from? The banking system behind payments and transfers? The systems that hold your investments, your pension... Please, I'd love to hear about all of that auditing and verifying you do. > It's probably a scar from the times of dictatorship. I have no idea what you mean by this. It honestly makes the opposite of sense to me, but if you could elaborate a little, perhaps you'd help me understand.

cassianoleal 3y ago

Let me begin by saying that I wholeheartedly agree the they should open-source it, not only the source code, but perhaps the hardware designs as well. > “It’s safe because I say so”. That's not quite the case. There are members from different parts of society, including regular civilians, who audit the system. Moreover, the political parties (the most interested parties in this whole thing, arguably after the general public) all have representatives who can audit the system. O procurador regional eleitoral deve indicar, então, um representante do Ministério Público para acompanhar os trabalhos da comissão. Os partidos políticos, as coligações, a Ordem dos Advogados do Brasil (OAB), o Congresso Nacional, o Supremo Tribunal Federal (STF), a Controladoria-Geral da União (CGU), o Departamento de Polícia Federal, a Sociedade Brasileira de Computação (SBC), o Conselho Federal de Engenharia e Agronomia (Confea) e os departamentos de Tecnologia da Informação de universidades também podem indicar representantes para acompanhar os trabalhos do grupo. Loosely translated: The regional electoral attorney must indicate a representative of the Ministério Público [0] to follow the works of the committee. The political parties, the alliances, the Order of Attorneys of Brazil (OAB), the National Congress, the Supreme Federal Court (STF), the Controladoria Geral da União (CGU), the Federal Police Department, the Brazilian Society of Computing (SBC), the Federal Council of Engineering and Agronomy (Confea) and the IT departments of universities may also indicate representatives to follow the works of the group. [0] Similar to the USA's State Department, if I'm not mistaken [1] Not sure what would be an equivalent. They're a Government organ responsible for taking care of public patrimony, provide transparency, fight corruption and other things Link: https://www.tse.jus.br/comunicacao/noticias/2020/Dezembro/veja-como-funciona-a-auditoria-de-funcionamento-das-urnas-eletronicas https://www.tse.jus.br/comunicacao/noticias/2020/Dezembro/ve... So you see, there's a lot of space for people from outside of the Government, the Electoral Court and the political system in general to take part in the audit proceedings. I personally know someone who has followed the audit process. He's also fighting for opening up the source code but has vouched for it. In fact, one of his arguments for opening up is precisely the fact that the audits have all come out well (with observations for improvements).

vulcan01 3y ago
You forgot to add your "[1]" footnote, but based on your description the equivalent would probably be the US's Government Accountability Office.
- cassianoleal 3y ago
  Thanks, I didn't forget but because I only pressed return once it's inline with [0]. I'll update it for better formatting and with this new information.
irusensei 3y ago
> That's not quite the case. > Proceeds to mention the few government and government related entities that can audit the system. > I know someone... ...
- cassianoleal 3y ago
  Is there a point to this?
  - irusensei 3y ago
    Yes. The fact that you didnt dispelled any of my critics about independent auditing. None of those institutions operate outside of the government sphere of influence (even private universities). In the end you just said "it's safe because they told us so... and by the way I know a guy". Seriously I'm appalled if you think your arguments are reasonable. That's a very classic brazilian response, to have trust and faith in the smart people doing the work for you. It's probably a scar from the times of dictatorship. I don't trust. I want to verify.
    - cassianoleal 3y ago
      Despite your disrespectful and prejudiced response, I will try to address some of your criticism. > I don't trust. I want to verify. Please re-read the very first sentence in my original comment. Hopefully uou'll see that we agree in this point. > None of those institutions operate outside of the government sphere of influence No one is outside of the government's sphere of influence. What that committe is, is a reunion of many different organisations with different points of view and participation of people from all levels of society. I would hope that you don't think Bolsonaro's PL and the PCdoB (Communist Party of Brazil) both have the same interest in defrauding the elections or letting a bad system stay in place. SBC, Confea and the universities all have regular people, some of whom any one of us know, are or have worked or studied with. That's where the "someone I know" anecdote comes in. I'm not saying anyone should believe or trust this random person who's an aquantaince of another random person on an Internet forum. It's just an anecdote to illustrate a point. There's no need to be rude about it. > Seriously I'm appalled if you think your arguments are reasonable. That's your prerrogative, I have no power over what appals you. > That's a very classic brazilian response This is prejudiced and offensive. Please refrain from this kind of comment. > to have trust and faith in the smart people doing the work for you. Not my point, but please tell me how much auditing and verification you do on every single other aspect of your life. Or do you trust people "smart people" to, I don't know, write your banking software? The e-commerce websites you buy from? The banking system behind payments and transfers? The systems that hold your investments, your pension... Please, I'd love to hear about all of that auditing and verifying you do. > It's probably a scar from the times of dictatorship. I have no idea what you mean by this. It honestly makes the opposite of sense to me, but if you could elaborate a little, perhaps you'd help me understand.