4 ms·

You say that now, but you'll be begging for militarized police when it's your kid at Parkland, or Uvalade, or wherever else it happens next.

ClassyJacket 3y ago
Australia doesn't have militarised police and school shootings don't happen in the first place. Also: every other country than the US.
- smcl 3y ago
  Yeah the UK had a shooting in Dunblane that shocked the country. Then, like Australia, something happened and somehow we didn’t have any more school shootings. If only we could pinpoint that something. Like if there was a lesson that could be learned from both of those cases, something the USA could take and apply to see a similar decline in such mass shootings …
  - _v7gu 3y ago
    You guys now have things like “mass stabbings” and truck attacks. I don’t know how the numbers were effected, but the underlying issues still seem to exist. After all, it is not the guns that convince people to commit mass murders.
    - smcl 3y ago
      I don’t think you want to do a US vs UK comparison on violent crime. Hell the American police alone committed more homicides than there were in the UK last year.
      - _v7gu 3y ago
        I know US is much worse in violent crime, but you can’t fix problems by addressing its symptoms while overlooking their main cause. If UK is still running campaigns like “safe a life, bin that knife”, then maybe targeting guns was not the correct solution to the problem.
        defrost 3y ago
        Worth mentioning the USofA is much worse per capita than the UK after adjusting for population size differences. Uniform firearm regulations in the UK reduced the per capita post war firearm incidents, now similar campaigns are targeting knife crimes. It's a layered approach - anybody that believes there's a single solution would be foolish.
        _v7gu 3y ago
        Wow, no shit the gun ban reduced firearm crimes. By “layered approach” I suppose you mean this cycle: people commit crimes -> ban the most popular method -> crime displaces -> ban the most popular method. Continuously claim that you’re “doing something” by addressing symptoms and feel superior, while also completely ignoring root causes. Now that’s some McKinsey shit.
        defrost 3y ago
        You've gone off on some bizarre tangent here. Forget guns, there are issues with poisons, explosives, driving cars, lasers, etc. Limiting access to any of these to those with substance abuse issues, domestic violence isues, repeated criminal propensity; requiring training in the basics to handle and deal provably reduce incidents while continuing use by those with a need. Do such things stop all incidents? No. Nothing is perfect but by your 'logic' seatbelts should be discarded, closely packed houses should not adhere to fire safety protocols, etc.
        lost_tourist 3y ago
        Clearly something is working, they have a much lower homicide rate than the US. I'm against gun bans, but I'm not going to act like the homicide rates are similar, the US is a (relative to other western nations, if that's our cut off) a very violent country.
    - abenga 3y ago
      Compared to mass shootings, mass stabbings are not as serious, really. You would need dozens of people to stand meekly and watch a stabber work down the line to get the same number hurt that a person with an automatic gun can kill in a few seconds.
- philwelch 3y ago
  Like France for instance?
gmerc 3y ago
Uhm, we’ve had militarized police for a decade now… All those kids are dead nevertheless. So back up your argument kindly ?
mmiyer 3y ago
You use Uvalde as an example, where the police infamously did not do anything to save the kids and in fact prevented parents from saving their own kids.
- Der_Einzige 3y ago
  Having the police be militarized makes it far easier to convict them when they don't do their jobs. The parkland resource officer just got acquitted, partly because he wasn't equipped to rush the attacker. Militarized police would have no excuse, and would be easy to convict for cowardness.
  - YawningAngel 3y ago
    Is cowardice a crime?
    - qawwads 3y ago
      I found this: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/899 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/899
  - adhesive_wombat 3y ago
    > Militarized police would have no excuse They'd have the same excuse they have now: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Town_of_Castle_Rock_v._Gonzales https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Town_of_Castle_Rock_v._Gonza... Then again, if they did change that and use military-style regulations, complete with desertion and cowardice rules, maybe the equivalent of military police (police police?) can stamp out corruption and violence against the public, in the same way that a soldier stealing supplies or deliberately harming civilians would be (should be) punished harshly by a military court.
    - qawwads 3y ago
      I think what you want is a gendarmerie. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gendarmerie https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gendarmerie
nathan_compton 3y ago
I think most of the people exposed to those events are begging for sane gun control.
celticninja 3y ago
They had militarised police in Uvalde, lots of good guys with guns, remind me again how that worked out?
smcl 3y ago
They weren’t very useful in either Parkland or Uvalde. I think at the point where you’ve got a fucked up person, determined to kill, with easy access to firearms and a culture where “a school shooting” is a regular thing, you’ve already lost. Giving the police more or less guns is sort of meaningless to this discussion, they’ve proven to be hopeless. You need to be tackling broader societal problems and looking closely at whether the second amendment’s “well-regulated militia” really means “anyone can have a gun”
- hnhg 3y ago
  To add to that, I would listen to what this ex-member of the SAS says on this very topic, and how difficult it is to actually undertake (and he was the guy who helped with the terrorist attack on a shopping mall in Nairobi, so he has some direct experience): https://youtu.be/h3CNLY7fSzU?t=1797 https://youtu.be/h3CNLY7fSzU?t=1797
  - smcl 3y ago
    I feel like many people would hear his words and not really process them. To you or I Craighead is saying something quite sensible - "you need to be ready and prepared to actually do this, and you probably aren't and won't be". But I've seen a lot of guys just parroting things like "be ready to use lethal force if you have to" to sound tough and as a sort of self-motivation, without really thinking about what they're saying. I've no idea who is mentally prepared or adequately trained to pull out a gun and tackle a mass shooter, but I'd be very surprised if the overwhelming majority of gun enthusiasts didn't just do something like this in that situation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saQ72NZtrS0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saQ72NZtrS0
    - hnhg 3y ago
      Yeah, and in total, he says it is about having all of (mentality * training * mental agility) to deal with such a situation. Given the low entrance requirements for joining a typical police force, I doubt many officers out there have all of those things in place, let alone civilians.
    - 3y ago
kurikuri 3y ago
And, at that time, hopefully society will realize that the parent has this militant request was traumatized and is making irrational demands. To me, fewer guns sounds like a better solution than more guns.

ClassyJacket 3y ago

Australia doesn't have militarised police and school shootings don't happen in the first place. Also: every other country than the US.

smcl 3y ago
Yeah the UK had a shooting in Dunblane that shocked the country. Then, like Australia, something happened and somehow we didn’t have any more school shootings. If only we could pinpoint that something. Like if there was a lesson that could be learned from both of those cases, something the USA could take and apply to see a similar decline in such mass shootings …
- _v7gu 3y ago
  You guys now have things like “mass stabbings” and truck attacks. I don’t know how the numbers were effected, but the underlying issues still seem to exist. After all, it is not the guns that convince people to commit mass murders.
  - smcl 3y ago
    I don’t think you want to do a US vs UK comparison on violent crime. Hell the American police alone committed more homicides than there were in the UK last year.
    - _v7gu 3y ago
      I know US is much worse in violent crime, but you can’t fix problems by addressing its symptoms while overlooking their main cause. If UK is still running campaigns like “safe a life, bin that knife”, then maybe targeting guns was not the correct solution to the problem.
      - defrost 3y ago
        Worth mentioning the USofA is much worse per capita than the UK after adjusting for population size differences. Uniform firearm regulations in the UK reduced the per capita post war firearm incidents, now similar campaigns are targeting knife crimes. It's a layered approach - anybody that believes there's a single solution would be foolish.
        _v7gu 3y ago
        Wow, no shit the gun ban reduced firearm crimes. By “layered approach” I suppose you mean this cycle: people commit crimes -> ban the most popular method -> crime displaces -> ban the most popular method. Continuously claim that you’re “doing something” by addressing symptoms and feel superior, while also completely ignoring root causes. Now that’s some McKinsey shit.
        defrost 3y ago
        You've gone off on some bizarre tangent here. Forget guns, there are issues with poisons, explosives, driving cars, lasers, etc. Limiting access to any of these to those with substance abuse issues, domestic violence isues, repeated criminal propensity; requiring training in the basics to handle and deal provably reduce incidents while continuing use by those with a need. Do such things stop all incidents? No. Nothing is perfect but by your 'logic' seatbelts should be discarded, closely packed houses should not adhere to fire safety protocols, etc.
      - lost_tourist 3y ago
        Clearly something is working, they have a much lower homicide rate than the US. I'm against gun bans, but I'm not going to act like the homicide rates are similar, the US is a (relative to other western nations, if that's our cut off) a very violent country.
  - abenga 3y ago
    Compared to mass shootings, mass stabbings are not as serious, really. You would need dozens of people to stand meekly and watch a stabber work down the line to get the same number hurt that a person with an automatic gun can kill in a few seconds.
philwelch 3y ago
Like France for instance?

gmerc 3y ago

Uhm, we’ve had militarized police for a decade now… All those kids are dead nevertheless. So back up your argument kindly ?

mmiyer 3y ago

You use Uvalde as an example, where the police infamously did not do anything to save the kids and in fact prevented parents from saving their own kids.

Der_Einzige 3y ago
Having the police be militarized makes it far easier to convict them when they don't do their jobs. The parkland resource officer just got acquitted, partly because he wasn't equipped to rush the attacker. Militarized police would have no excuse, and would be easy to convict for cowardness.
- YawningAngel 3y ago
  Is cowardice a crime?
  - qawwads 3y ago
    I found this: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/899 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/899
- adhesive_wombat 3y ago
  > Militarized police would have no excuse They'd have the same excuse they have now: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Town_of_Castle_Rock_v._Gonzales https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Town_of_Castle_Rock_v._Gonza... Then again, if they did change that and use military-style regulations, complete with desertion and cowardice rules, maybe the equivalent of military police (police police?) can stamp out corruption and violence against the public, in the same way that a soldier stealing supplies or deliberately harming civilians would be (should be) punished harshly by a military court.
  - qawwads 3y ago
    I think what you want is a gendarmerie. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gendarmerie https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gendarmerie

nathan_compton 3y ago

I think most of the people exposed to those events are begging for sane gun control.

celticninja 3y ago

They had militarised police in Uvalde, lots of good guys with guns, remind me again how that worked out?

smcl 3y ago

They weren’t very useful in either Parkland or Uvalde. I think at the point where you’ve got a fucked up person, determined to kill, with easy access to firearms and a culture where “a school shooting” is a regular thing, you’ve already lost. Giving the police more or less guns is sort of meaningless to this discussion, they’ve proven to be hopeless. You need to be tackling broader societal problems and looking closely at whether the second amendment’s “well-regulated militia” really means “anyone can have a gun”

hnhg 3y ago
To add to that, I would listen to what this ex-member of the SAS says on this very topic, and how difficult it is to actually undertake (and he was the guy who helped with the terrorist attack on a shopping mall in Nairobi, so he has some direct experience): https://youtu.be/h3CNLY7fSzU?t=1797 https://youtu.be/h3CNLY7fSzU?t=1797
- smcl 3y ago
  I feel like many people would hear his words and not really process them. To you or I Craighead is saying something quite sensible - "you need to be ready and prepared to actually do this, and you probably aren't and won't be". But I've seen a lot of guys just parroting things like "be ready to use lethal force if you have to" to sound tough and as a sort of self-motivation, without really thinking about what they're saying. I've no idea who is mentally prepared or adequately trained to pull out a gun and tackle a mass shooter, but I'd be very surprised if the overwhelming majority of gun enthusiasts didn't just do something like this in that situation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saQ72NZtrS0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saQ72NZtrS0
  - hnhg 3y ago
    Yeah, and in total, he says it is about having all of (mentality * training * mental agility) to deal with such a situation. Given the low entrance requirements for joining a typical police force, I doubt many officers out there have all of those things in place, let alone civilians.
  - 3y ago

kurikuri 3y ago

And, at that time, hopefully society will realize that the parent has this militant request was traumatized and is making irrational demands. To me, fewer guns sounds like a better solution than more guns.