7 ms·

"As a respected hosting provider, I hope they do the correct thing and refund me for this liability due to their error. Many people trust Linode, and they have

by larrys 15y ago

"As a respected hosting provider, I hope they do the correct thing and refund me for this liability due to their error. Many people trust Linode, and they have proven themselves as a serious contender for hosting critical sensitive operations on the internet. I would hate to not see them live up to that reputation." "hosting critical sensitive operations" in particular. If you are doing "critical sensitive operations" you need a more secure solution and process which will cost you more money. Under no circumstances can a hosting provider assume the liability for something like this. The tradeoff you make for the low cost you pay is that you might have an issue like this because someone screws up. You pay more for a safe to store your money (and for a safe deposit box to store your valuables) because it's important and you understand the risk involved in not doing that. If you have valuable jewelry many times the insurance company will only insure if you keep it in the safe when you are not wearing it and even the amount of days is specified when it can be out of the safe. It's unreasonable to expect (and linode's contract clearly states as other's have mentioned) a hosting provider to have a liability over what you are paying them. Edit Add: Unless you specifically have an agreement in advance or that is what they promised or charged you for. Before anyone reacts to this with any harsh criticism please think for a second what liability you would want for any mistakes that you make with your web startup or idea. You could either be charging zero or charging a small $5 to $20 per month charge. You might make a mistake. Are you willing to accept and even be able to insure for thousands or even millions in liability for those mistakes?

dave_sullivan 15y ago
It's certainly a grey area, but at what point is it safe to assume that if you get hacked, it's not going to be because your ISP got hacked? Say this happened to Amazon and it affected a company like Heroku or dropbox, both users of AWS? Regardless of what terms of service says, I'll bet there's some liability somewhere. And if there's a cut off, maybe linode should advertise that? "Hey, we're cheap, but you get what you pay for!" rather than "You're getting ripped off if you go with amazon over linode!" If a bank gets robbed, I'm not liable for the cash they steal. But how about if I've got cash in a safe deposit box and someone uses a fake id to get into it, and the bank doesn't recognize the fraud? That's trickier. And if someone robs my house and I've got a bunch of cash under my mattress, that's another story too. I know the analogy doesn't quite hold up because it's kind of like a bank and a customer engineering a safe together (eg both could be at fault for a break in), but there's got to be some responsibility on Linode's part.
- RLG_RLG 15y ago
  > but at what point is it safe to assume that if you get hacked, it's not going to be because your ISP got hacked If you co-locate your hardware at a data center and your staff competently secures your systems.
  - spindritf 15y ago
    Secure with what? A booby trap? There's always a level of trust you need to have for your provider. Even when you get a cage in their DC.
    - RLG_RLG 15y ago
      Set low level passwords and use filesystem encryption. eg: passwords on all networking devices, boot loaders, and BIOS. Three letter agencies and foreign governments could attack your data if they took it off line, but you monitoring should detect that.
- tadfisher 15y ago
  I'd say this is more akin to stashing a bunch of money in a self-storage unit instead of a bank account. One explicitly insures against theft, the other does not. The onus is on you as a customer to decide what to go with.
  - tylermenezes 15y ago
    > One explicitly insures against theft, the other does not. I'd take issue with that summary. If I put things in a self-storage unit, and it gets robbed because some employee left his master key under the door mat, regardless of how bad of an idea it was to store my money there, that's still their issue. Think about it this way. I could store my money under a table at McDonald's, in a self-storage unit, or in a bank. Clearly the self-storage unit should provide me some more security than McDonald's. So when an attacker gets access through some really trivial method that they really should be protected against, that's their fault; it doesn't matter that there was a better security option, because it's still below what I was paying for.
eli 15y ago
I can put a "not responsible for stolen items" sign in my restaurant, but if the coat check employee bolts out the door when you hand them your coat, I'm buying you a new one.
- bigiain 15y ago
  <devil's advocate>Yeah, but could the (ex) coat owner hold the restaurant's landlord liable? Isn't it the restaurant _managers_ problem? I think there's a _lot_ of "grey areas" here, and while I feel sympathy for the guy who's out ~$13k worth of bitcoins, I can't help but think he was "doing the wrong thing" relying on the security of an inexpensive vps to keep them safe…
  - chc 15y ago
    What would you recommend? Would you say the same thing if he'd been colocating and a data center employee had stolen his bitcoins? Because that seems far more analogous than any restaurant analogy, and I don't see any reasonable way for somebody who's not a huge corporation to avoid this kind of risk. You have to trust somebody at some point unless you're keeping the server locked in your own closet. It seems really bizarre to me to say that a hosting provider doesn't have a responsibility not to steal your stuff.
    - bigiain 15y ago
      What do I recommend? I'm really not sure… Firstly, I'd start asking whether a $19.95/month shared hosting* account is a "reasonable" place to store $13k worth of (effectively) cash. I'd be _very_ careful if I had that sort of folding-money-type-cash on hand, and would under normal circumstances automatically deposit in a bank account to mitigate the risks involved with carrying it around. And I'd usually take steps to not ever have that sort of value of cash build up or be required - the only transaction I've ever done of that sort of value in cash is selling or buying a car from an individual - and that's always been a direct from transaction to the bank type of arrangement. If I had enough bitcoin value that it'd hurt to lose it, I would not (at least now in hindsight) store that on a machine that other people I don't know/trust have root access to. Maybe I'd keep my wallet on a usb stick in my pocket or in a safe at home? I think though that at somewhere near the $13k value the "right" thing to do is convert it to cash and take advantage of the existing banking system and its time-tested security and insurability. (* Which is fundamentally what a linode VPS is, at least from anyone with access to the hypervisors point of view.)
bigiain 15y ago
"please think for a second what liability you would want for any mistakes that you make with your web startup or idea" It seems to me that bitcoin wallets are a relatively new and not well enough understood risk. There are very few other "files" like them, in that an attacker copying them can deprive you of their value in a way that you cant protect with backups. I feel a big part of current "internet security best practices" are about minimising the risk of getting exploited - but with a pragmatic limit to how much effort you invest mediated by the excuse of "if we _do_ get rooted, we can always reinstall and recover from backups". It'll only cost you time, and perhaps some reputation, and may put assumed-private-to-you information in someone else's hands, but it hasn't deprived you of access to any of your data. That doesn't apply to bitcoin wallets, and example like this are pointing out flaws in assumptions people are making about appropriate ways to manage them. It'd suck to be "that guy" who provides the object lesson in why we need to think differently about bitcoin wallets to just about any other file type we might put on an internet accessible machine, but we _do_, and I don't know whether we have an answer to the question "Is there a way to secure a bitcoin wallet on a machine someone else has root access to (either your datacenter's staff with physical access, or the people with hypervisor access to the hardware your vm is running on)?" I _think_ the answer is "if you can't trust those people, you can't risk storing your bitcoins there". There's a reason people keep their money in banks, and not in train station luggage lockers. I'm guessing inexpensive commodity VPS's should be considered closer to storage lockers than bank vaults. I suspect the finance sector and/or fortune500 companies have hosting arrangements with companies offering bank-vault grade protection and reserve bank style insurance - but sure as hell not at $24.95/month.
- etcet 15y ago
  Don't store your money on servers you don't own. Don't have a web interface. Don't allow anyone to connect. Don't use passwords, use public key encryption. These are the basics.
  - tomp 15y ago
    What if they steal the key?

by larrys 15y ago

dave_sullivan 15y ago

It's certainly a grey area, but at what point is it safe to assume that if you get hacked, it's not going to be because your ISP got hacked? Say this happened to Amazon and it affected a company like Heroku or dropbox, both users of AWS? Regardless of what terms of service says, I'll bet there's some liability somewhere. And if there's a cut off, maybe linode should advertise that? "Hey, we're cheap, but you get what you pay for!" rather than "You're getting ripped off if you go with amazon over linode!" If a bank gets robbed, I'm not liable for the cash they steal. But how about if I've got cash in a safe deposit box and someone uses a fake id to get into it, and the bank doesn't recognize the fraud? That's trickier. And if someone robs my house and I've got a bunch of cash under my mattress, that's another story too. I know the analogy doesn't quite hold up because it's kind of like a bank and a customer engineering a safe together (eg both could be at fault for a break in), but there's got to be some responsibility on Linode's part.

RLG_RLG 15y ago
> but at what point is it safe to assume that if you get hacked, it's not going to be because your ISP got hacked If you co-locate your hardware at a data center and your staff competently secures your systems.
- spindritf 15y ago
  Secure with what? A booby trap? There's always a level of trust you need to have for your provider. Even when you get a cage in their DC.
  - RLG_RLG 15y ago
    Set low level passwords and use filesystem encryption. eg: passwords on all networking devices, boot loaders, and BIOS. Three letter agencies and foreign governments could attack your data if they took it off line, but you monitoring should detect that.
tadfisher 15y ago
I'd say this is more akin to stashing a bunch of money in a self-storage unit instead of a bank account. One explicitly insures against theft, the other does not. The onus is on you as a customer to decide what to go with.
- tylermenezes 15y ago
  > One explicitly insures against theft, the other does not. I'd take issue with that summary. If I put things in a self-storage unit, and it gets robbed because some employee left his master key under the door mat, regardless of how bad of an idea it was to store my money there, that's still their issue. Think about it this way. I could store my money under a table at McDonald's, in a self-storage unit, or in a bank. Clearly the self-storage unit should provide me some more security than McDonald's. So when an attacker gets access through some really trivial method that they really should be protected against, that's their fault; it doesn't matter that there was a better security option, because it's still below what I was paying for.

eli 15y ago

I can put a "not responsible for stolen items" sign in my restaurant, but if the coat check employee bolts out the door when you hand them your coat, I'm buying you a new one.

bigiain 15y ago
<devil's advocate>Yeah, but could the (ex) coat owner hold the restaurant's landlord liable? Isn't it the restaurant _managers_ problem? I think there's a _lot_ of "grey areas" here, and while I feel sympathy for the guy who's out ~$13k worth of bitcoins, I can't help but think he was "doing the wrong thing" relying on the security of an inexpensive vps to keep them safe…
- chc 15y ago
  What would you recommend? Would you say the same thing if he'd been colocating and a data center employee had stolen his bitcoins? Because that seems far more analogous than any restaurant analogy, and I don't see any reasonable way for somebody who's not a huge corporation to avoid this kind of risk. You have to trust somebody at some point unless you're keeping the server locked in your own closet. It seems really bizarre to me to say that a hosting provider doesn't have a responsibility not to steal your stuff.
  - bigiain 15y ago
    What do I recommend? I'm really not sure… Firstly, I'd start asking whether a $19.95/month shared hosting* account is a "reasonable" place to store $13k worth of (effectively) cash. I'd be _very_ careful if I had that sort of folding-money-type-cash on hand, and would under normal circumstances automatically deposit in a bank account to mitigate the risks involved with carrying it around. And I'd usually take steps to not ever have that sort of value of cash build up or be required - the only transaction I've ever done of that sort of value in cash is selling or buying a car from an individual - and that's always been a direct from transaction to the bank type of arrangement. If I had enough bitcoin value that it'd hurt to lose it, I would not (at least now in hindsight) store that on a machine that other people I don't know/trust have root access to. Maybe I'd keep my wallet on a usb stick in my pocket or in a safe at home? I think though that at somewhere near the $13k value the "right" thing to do is convert it to cash and take advantage of the existing banking system and its time-tested security and insurability. (* Which is fundamentally what a linode VPS is, at least from anyone with access to the hypervisors point of view.)

bigiain 15y ago

"please think for a second what liability you would want for any mistakes that you make with your web startup or idea" It seems to me that bitcoin wallets are a relatively new and not well enough understood risk. There are very few other "files" like them, in that an attacker copying them can deprive you of their value in a way that you cant protect with backups. I feel a big part of current "internet security best practices" are about minimising the risk of getting exploited - but with a pragmatic limit to how much effort you invest mediated by the excuse of "if we _do_ get rooted, we can always reinstall and recover from backups". It'll only cost you time, and perhaps some reputation, and may put assumed-private-to-you information in someone else's hands, but it hasn't deprived you of access to any of your data. That doesn't apply to bitcoin wallets, and example like this are pointing out flaws in assumptions people are making about appropriate ways to manage them. It'd suck to be "that guy" who provides the object lesson in why we need to think differently about bitcoin wallets to just about any other file type we might put on an internet accessible machine, but we _do_, and I don't know whether we have an answer to the question "Is there a way to secure a bitcoin wallet on a machine someone else has root access to (either your datacenter's staff with physical access, or the people with hypervisor access to the hardware your vm is running on)?" I _think_ the answer is "if you can't trust those people, you can't risk storing your bitcoins there". There's a reason people keep their money in banks, and not in train station luggage lockers. I'm guessing inexpensive commodity VPS's should be considered closer to storage lockers than bank vaults. I suspect the finance sector and/or fortune500 companies have hosting arrangements with companies offering bank-vault grade protection and reserve bank style insurance - but sure as hell not at $24.95/month.

etcet 15y ago
Don't store your money on servers you don't own. Don't have a web interface. Don't allow anyone to connect. Don't use passwords, use public key encryption. These are the basics.
- tomp 15y ago
  What if they steal the key?