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Chomsky just says the quiet part out aloud. I’m always amused by people who think that if the USA ceased its war mongering efforts no nation would try to fill

Chomsky just says the quiet part out aloud. I’m always amused by people who think that if the USA ceased its war mongering efforts no nation would try to fill that void and everyone would just get along nicely.

msla 3y ago
> I’m always amused by people who think that if the USA ceased its war mongering efforts no nation would try to fill that void and everyone would just get along nicely. Orwell said it pretty well: > It is also worth emphasising once again that nationalist feeling can be purely negative. There are, for example, Trotskyists who have become simply enemies of the U.S.S.R. without developing a corresponding loyalty to any other unit. From "Notes On Nationalism" My point is that some people just hate the USA, think everything bad is somehow the USA's fault (even to the point of thinking all revolutions or coups are CIA plots, as if Those People had no agency of their own) and base their whole worldview on that hatred.
- pydry 3y ago
  >My point is that some people just hate the USA, think everything bad is somehow the USA's fault Some people write off every CIA plot as a harebrained conspiracy theory until they publish the papers about it 50 years later.
  - msla 3y ago
    "Nothing happens without the CIA" is just as comforting as "Nothing happens without God" I suppose; both presuppose the existence of an all-powerful entity controlling everything, as a ward against having to acknowledge randomness and absurdity.
    - pydry 3y ago
      You seem to be implying that you fall into this group.
pydry 3y ago
The USA as a world hegemon was in a unique position from roughly 1990-2012 to be able to put in place a rules based international order. That would have made it much more difficult for aspiring regional hegemons to one day supplant it, as most countries would be attached to a rules based international order if it existed. But they didn't and now Russia gets to play the "same shit, different hegemon" card and instead of the entire world pushing back against the invasion of Ukraine, it's just ~40 of the US's closest allies. The rest of the world doesn't care.
- _kbh_ 3y ago
  > But they didn't and now Russia gets to play the "same shit, different hegemon" card and instead of the entire world pushing back against the invasion of Ukraine, it's just ~40 of the US's closest allies. The rest of the world doesn't care. The UN is a pretty good map of how the world feels about the war I feel. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_General_Assembly_Resolution_ES-11/1#:~:text=The%20resolution%20was%20sponsored%20by,5%20against%2C%20and%2035%20abstentions https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_General_Assem.... 77.90% of UN members voted for it, a handle of nations outside of Russia voted against it. Not even Russias apparent biggest ally (China) voted against it they abstained instead.
  - pydry 3y ago
    UN resolutions are not a good gauge of anything much. * They are nonbinding, so they are purely symbolic. * Countries lean on each other all the time to vote one way or another. Especially hegemons. * Only 50% of those countries are even nominally run by democratic governments. * Most governments hate secessionism on principle (whether democratic or not), which is reflected in the votes, but I doubt, say, the average Spaniard is especially bothered about Kosovo or Scotland's independence. It bothers the Spanish government though because Catalonia.
    - _kbh_ 3y ago
      I think they are a great gauge of sentiment for exactly the first reason you pointed out. > * They are nonbinding, so they are purely symbolic. So then why didn't more of Russias allies vote for Russia and why did so much of the world vote for Ukraine?.

msla 3y ago

> I’m always amused by people who think that if the USA ceased its war mongering efforts no nation would try to fill that void and everyone would just get along nicely. Orwell said it pretty well: > It is also worth emphasising once again that nationalist feeling can be purely negative. There are, for example, Trotskyists who have become simply enemies of the U.S.S.R. without developing a corresponding loyalty to any other unit. From "Notes On Nationalism" My point is that some people just hate the USA, think everything bad is somehow the USA's fault (even to the point of thinking all revolutions or coups are CIA plots, as if Those People had no agency of their own) and base their whole worldview on that hatred.

pydry 3y ago
>My point is that some people just hate the USA, think everything bad is somehow the USA's fault Some people write off every CIA plot as a harebrained conspiracy theory until they publish the papers about it 50 years later.
- msla 3y ago
  "Nothing happens without the CIA" is just as comforting as "Nothing happens without God" I suppose; both presuppose the existence of an all-powerful entity controlling everything, as a ward against having to acknowledge randomness and absurdity.
  - pydry 3y ago
    You seem to be implying that you fall into this group.

pydry 3y ago

The USA as a world hegemon was in a unique position from roughly 1990-2012 to be able to put in place a rules based international order. That would have made it much more difficult for aspiring regional hegemons to one day supplant it, as most countries would be attached to a rules based international order if it existed. But they didn't and now Russia gets to play the "same shit, different hegemon" card and instead of the entire world pushing back against the invasion of Ukraine, it's just ~40 of the US's closest allies. The rest of the world doesn't care.

_kbh_ 3y ago
> But they didn't and now Russia gets to play the "same shit, different hegemon" card and instead of the entire world pushing back against the invasion of Ukraine, it's just ~40 of the US's closest allies. The rest of the world doesn't care. The UN is a pretty good map of how the world feels about the war I feel. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_General_Assembly_Resolution_ES-11/1#:~:text=The%20resolution%20was%20sponsored%20by,5%20against%2C%20and%2035%20abstentions https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_General_Assem.... 77.90% of UN members voted for it, a handle of nations outside of Russia voted against it. Not even Russias apparent biggest ally (China) voted against it they abstained instead.
- pydry 3y ago
  UN resolutions are not a good gauge of anything much. * They are nonbinding, so they are purely symbolic. * Countries lean on each other all the time to vote one way or another. Especially hegemons. * Only 50% of those countries are even nominally run by democratic governments. * Most governments hate secessionism on principle (whether democratic or not), which is reflected in the votes, but I doubt, say, the average Spaniard is especially bothered about Kosovo or Scotland's independence. It bothers the Spanish government though because Catalonia.
  - _kbh_ 3y ago
    I think they are a great gauge of sentiment for exactly the first reason you pointed out. > * They are nonbinding, so they are purely symbolic. So then why didn't more of Russias allies vote for Russia and why did so much of the world vote for Ukraine?.