3 ms·

You are compelled to accept business from protected classes. The government cannot compel you to speak words against your values. In this case the government

You are compelled to accept business from protected classes. The government cannot compel you to speak words against your values. In this case the government could compel the evangelical website designer to accept business from a gay couple, but could not compel her to design a website that endorsed gay marriage.

orangepurple 3y ago
Speech in this case refers to more than spoken words
KingLancelot 3y ago
[dead]
jakelazaroff 3y ago
Let’s say you only design wedding websites and you don’t believe in same-sex marriage. How do you square that circle?
- candiddevmike 3y ago
  Start believing in same-sex marriage?
- zeroonetwothree 3y ago
  Hypothetically a straight person could marry someone of the same sex (or vice versa). And I’m sure it happens once in a while.
  - jakelazaroff 3y ago
    What point do you think you’re making?
- ttyprintk 3y ago
  Practically, in other countries, for example alcohol-prohibited ones, workers do the design with placeholder content. This does not always work. There’s a severe social penalty if one of those workers is (against their will and efforts) associated with a forbidden practice. People who claim this ruling in the USA is about liberty are in denial that it only promotes fear.
abeppu 3y ago
I'm still really in disagreement that a web designer making a wedding site is creating _designs_ that in and of themselves are any kind of speech regarding anyone's rights. The client gives some pics they like, some copy for a short bio, a link to their registry, some copy with the date, venue, requested attire. I think the client does _not_ generally also request, "oh, by the way, we're not going to provide you specific wording but we'd like you to add some sort of statement about how important our equal right to marriage is". And if the website designer _did_ insert some political expression, the client has every right to be upset. In real life, to the degree there is creative design work, it's in creating a useful site which reflects some aesthetic preferences indicated by the client, _not_ in expressing any opinion about rights. I think the 10th court was wrong in saying her services could be called "pure speech"; they should fall into the same bin as the wedding singer that has to sing but not write lyrics, the florist, the caterer, the photographer, etc. You're hired to provide a service, not to provide an opinion.
- zeroonetwothree 3y ago
  If you just want a standard template you don’t need to hire a designer, just use one of the many sites that offer that. Presumably if you hire a designer you do want some creative actions on their part.
  - abeppu 3y ago
    Sure! Maybe a couple wants an animated map that shows their geographic paths that finally cross and intertwine. Maybe they both love early 2000s music and they want their wedding site to look like a myspace page that plays their fav song. But do LGBT clients as a group ask, "please write a paragraph of your own devising advocating for gay marriage as equal to straight marriage in the eyes of God"? No, they don't, so pre-declaring that as a class, making a wedding site for any LGBT couple would require her to "say" anything she disagrees with is false. The site designer can be creative and so can the florist. That creative act is not a statement about the rights anyone should have.

orangepurple 3y ago

Speech in this case refers to more than spoken words

KingLancelot 3y ago

[dead]

jakelazaroff 3y ago

Let’s say you only design wedding websites and you don’t believe in same-sex marriage. How do you square that circle?

candiddevmike 3y ago
Start believing in same-sex marriage?
zeroonetwothree 3y ago
Hypothetically a straight person could marry someone of the same sex (or vice versa). And I’m sure it happens once in a while.
- jakelazaroff 3y ago
  What point do you think you’re making?
ttyprintk 3y ago
Practically, in other countries, for example alcohol-prohibited ones, workers do the design with placeholder content. This does not always work. There’s a severe social penalty if one of those workers is (against their will and efforts) associated with a forbidden practice. People who claim this ruling in the USA is about liberty are in denial that it only promotes fear.

abeppu 3y ago

I'm still really in disagreement that a web designer making a wedding site is creating _designs_ that in and of themselves are any kind of speech regarding anyone's rights. The client gives some pics they like, some copy for a short bio, a link to their registry, some copy with the date, venue, requested attire. I think the client does _not_ generally also request, "oh, by the way, we're not going to provide you specific wording but we'd like you to add some sort of statement about how important our equal right to marriage is". And if the website designer _did_ insert some political expression, the client has every right to be upset. In real life, to the degree there is creative design work, it's in creating a useful site which reflects some aesthetic preferences indicated by the client, _not_ in expressing any opinion about rights. I think the 10th court was wrong in saying her services could be called "pure speech"; they should fall into the same bin as the wedding singer that has to sing but not write lyrics, the florist, the caterer, the photographer, etc. You're hired to provide a service, not to provide an opinion.

zeroonetwothree 3y ago
If you just want a standard template you don’t need to hire a designer, just use one of the many sites that offer that. Presumably if you hire a designer you do want some creative actions on their part.
- abeppu 3y ago
  Sure! Maybe a couple wants an animated map that shows their geographic paths that finally cross and intertwine. Maybe they both love early 2000s music and they want their wedding site to look like a myspace page that plays their fav song. But do LGBT clients as a group ask, "please write a paragraph of your own devising advocating for gay marriage as equal to straight marriage in the eyes of God"? No, they don't, so pre-declaring that as a class, making a wedding site for any LGBT couple would require her to "say" anything she disagrees with is false. The site designer can be creative and so can the florist. That creative act is not a statement about the rights anyone should have.