5 ms·

If the only requirement is "using no JavaScript", you know that you don't need CSS either, right? Dark web chatrooms just use frames — one frame to render the c

by derefr 3y ago

If the only requirement is "using no JavaScript", you know that you don't need CSS either, right? Dark web chatrooms just use frames — one frame to render the chat transcript (using a forever-loading "Transfer-Encoding: chunked" HTML page); the other with a plain old <form> with an <input type="text"> and a <submit>.

killingtime74 3y ago
Can you talk a bit more about how it works? Is the page reloaded on submit?
- dvt 3y ago
  This is an old trick, so I understand why people probably haven't seen it these days. But you have a page with two frames: the submission frame (i.e. input form, usually on the bottom of the page) is reloaded on submit, while the chat log (usually the top frame) loads infinitely.
  - lelandbatey 3y ago
    Just to be further specific, they're talking about embedding two separate webpages inside of one page, using "iframe" HTML elements. In the bad old days you'd probably use a bare "frame" element, but those aren't valid HTML as of HTML5.
    - blackbeans 3y ago
      I think they used a frameset with frames. It had the advantage that it could be sized to the browser window as a percentage and both frames could be refreshed/loaded independently without affecting the other.
tester756 3y ago
weren't people also implementing live chat with gifs back in the day?
- jdiff 3y ago
  People were absolutely doing countdowns with gifs that were constructed and delivered to the client a frame at a time. I can't say that I personally ever saw any madman building a live chat feed with that technique but there's unfortunately nobody and nothing that could have stopped them.
deaddodo 3y ago
This is essentially what they are doing, minus the form frame.
kyle-rb 3y ago
CSS is needed because this app isn't using HTML forms to send the data. That would be easier, but part of the magic here is that in addition to no JavaScript, the page also never reloads. The readme explains how the CSS :active selector is used to detect button presses.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- ComputerGuru 3y ago
  I mentioned multipart/x-mixed-replace above and I think it can work here instead of CSS. You never reload the chat history page, just put that in an iframe and use a separate iframe with a form that submits your newest reply. Edit: actually this should work even without mixed replace.
  - remram 3y ago
    When the form submits its frame refreshes ("navigates").
    - ComputerGuru 3y ago
      Right but reloading a static html asset (the reply iframe consisting of just a textbox) is basically free. So long as you separate the chat history window and the reply textbox/form into two separate frames, I don’t see the problem.
      - croshan 3y ago
        Using JavaScript is also “basically free”. There’s no problem with either listed approach, GP just seems to consider a method without page reloads as adhering to a harder constraint.
elikoga 3y ago
Implemented here in haskell, didn't even add screenshots back then ^^' https://github.com/elikoga/jsless-chat https://github.com/elikoga/jsless-chat
- johngalt2600 3y ago
  very cool!
userbinator 3y ago
This wasn't a "dark web" thing in the late 90s, it was widely used. Unfortunately due to the awfulness of search engines today I can't find it now, but I remember there's a PHP script called "moonchat" which was somewhat common and JS-less.
- creatonez 3y ago
  Recently posted to HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36486109 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36486109
ComputerGuru 3y ago
There’s also multipart/x-mixed-replace for rendering only the latest update (replacing previous content) but iirc Chrome dropped support for that when content type is HTML [0]. [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7349266 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7349266
- eyegor 3y ago
  I can tell you that it still works in chrome, this method was used by one of my coworkers as a quick and dirty hack until we had time to implement a real solution for data streaming. It worked fine in all major browsers ~2 weeks ago.
  - ComputerGuru 3y ago
    I’m not sure what context you were using it in? It still works for non-HTML content types, can be used for mjpeg video streams, etc but you shouldn’t be able to use it to replace the previously rendered HTML contents of a frame.
    - eyegor 3y ago
      Hmm I don't remember if we did dom manipulation in there. It was definitely used for video streaming though. There's a good chance we only used it for mjpeg and canvas shenanigans.
est 3y ago
<form action="msg.asp" method="post" target="my_iframe">
sam0x17 3y ago
When I was at Kagi I implemented their fallback poly-fill for web sockets that way. Worked great!
javascript_obso 3y ago
Can we please have a code example for this technique or any similar way of not using JavaScript for this feature set? This is very interesting! Thanks!
- savolai 3y ago
  Chatgpt-4 seems to do fine if you ask it to provide the php. This tech was used in the nineties by a finnish chat site operated by a radio station. I used to go on dates from the site myself. Thought it would be valuable to have this archived in english too https://www.iltalehti.fi/fiidifi/a/2015021119172724 https://www.iltalehti.fi/fiidifi/a/2015021119172724 ”KissFM Chat - do you still remember? For many, KissFM's chat was their first contact with the internet. This is what it looked like back then. KISSFM Mari Pudas Thursday, February 12, 2015 at 10:40 In the mid-1990s, not every home had an internet connection, in fact, it was quite a luxury. But fortunately, there were computers with internet connections in libraries. Under the watchful eye of the librarian, you could use the computer for up to an hour, sometimes just half an hour. There were no Youtubes, not to mention Facebook or Twitter. So what did we do on the internet back then? Of course, we went to KissFM's chat! Kiss FM's chat was founded in 1996, and was initially known as a hotel. Around 1998, the chat site got a brighter, greenish color scheme and the hotel was abandoned. The chat became Chatropol. There you chose a "room" to chat with like-minded people based on your interests. The most popular rooms, cafe, disco, erotic house, and singles bars, were always occupied, as they could only accommodate about a dozen chatters at a time. Then you had to be content with the office building or the hairdresser. But regardless of the name, the conversation was often hilariously fun. Over the years, its popularity waned and Kiss also became Voice. But let's let the former chatters reminisce about Kiss's golden age: My friend and I used to use the names of Finnish schlager stars as our nicknames in the Kiss FM chat. We didn't intend to deceive anyone, we just thought it was a fun joke. Until "Marita Taavitsainen" received a private message thanking her, saying that the new album is wonderful. We politely thanked and that ended the use of real names due to a bout of bad conscience. Ilona I spent time and looked for some company while studying in Tampere at the beginning of the millennium. I enjoyed most in the Tampere section of Kiss FM's chat, where I held a quiz for other chatters - the fastest correct answer gets a point, and ten points to win. My nickname was Joe DiMaggio. The Tampere department also had a nickname, hilleri, and he always said hrrrrrrr when he joined the channel. Others happily welcomed him. I even went on a couple of dates with a girl I met through the chat, but nothing more serious came out of those. Joe -The time when there was no internet at home (even with a modem) and you had to reserve hourly slots from the library for chatting after school... and just when you were having a good conversation with some nice guy, the library lady came to complain and you had to stop. -Choosing rooms based on names, and then they were full! -When some guy tested if I was old enough by asking when my period starts... younger ones wouldn't probably have known how to crack the code ;) Jepa The greatest amusement for teenage girls was to find a boy from the Kiss chat, and we would all respond together. Back then we just exchanged harmless messages, asked about each other's well-being and hobbies. We had no idea if the boy on the other side of the internet existed or not. In middle school, we would sneak into the computer room during breaks to chat or visit that friend who had a computer. Then of course we were nervous that a landline phone call would interrupt the internet connection. Anna I participated in discussions, but unfortunately I don't remember any of the topics. I just thought of the most popular internet fashion words of that time such as "peelo" which described an idiot/troublemaker who doesn't follow netiquette (:D). Oh boy! In middle school (around 1997), I chose ICT as an optional subject. The school had a new fancy computer room, where everyone had their own computers with internet. First, we had to learn touch typing, then we could do what we wanted, i.e., create restless gif animations for our homepages or surf the internet. There wasn't much content on the internet yet - or we didn't know how to find it. But the gates of Kiss FM's chat city were wide open! Initially, I remember the coloring of the site being black-neon green, then the site was renewed and diversified, and the graphic image became city-like. Usernames were of course something like "FlowerGirl82" and the conversation was quite innocent flirting. I guess I learned something from that, but I still wish I had learned that HTML. FlowerGirl82 Late Around the age of 12, we pretended to be a bit older and played like we were looking for company. We sweet-talked for a while until we managed to coax out phone numbers. Then we made prank calls to those numbers. This pattern was repeated numerous times. I'm not proud, but I don't regret it either”
411111111111111 3y ago
classic HN comment. do note the name of the project and ask yourself again, was the only constraint to not use javascript?
Mizza 3y ago
I remember implementing this a long, long time ago for that purpose. It was a novelty then, didn't know it was still being used. https://github.com/Miserlou/OnionChat https://github.com/Miserlou/OnionChat
hnlmorg 3y ago
In the 90s we used to just call them “chat rooms” (or “HTML chat” if we wanted to differentiate for stand alone clients like IRC). I even wrote one myself.
- ykonstant 3y ago
  I loved them; probably nostalgia, but I was having much more fun with those than today's chatrooms. I also preferred them to IRC for some reason.
buzzier 3y ago
iframe + meta refresh 10s

by derefr 3y ago

killingtime74 3y ago

Can you talk a bit more about how it works? Is the page reloaded on submit?

dvt 3y ago
This is an old trick, so I understand why people probably haven't seen it these days. But you have a page with two frames: the submission frame (i.e. input form, usually on the bottom of the page) is reloaded on submit, while the chat log (usually the top frame) loads infinitely.
- lelandbatey 3y ago
  Just to be further specific, they're talking about embedding two separate webpages inside of one page, using "iframe" HTML elements. In the bad old days you'd probably use a bare "frame" element, but those aren't valid HTML as of HTML5.
  - blackbeans 3y ago
    I think they used a frameset with frames. It had the advantage that it could be sized to the browser window as a percentage and both frames could be refreshed/loaded independently without affecting the other.

tester756 3y ago

weren't people also implementing live chat with gifs back in the day?

jdiff 3y ago
People were absolutely doing countdowns with gifs that were constructed and delivered to the client a frame at a time. I can't say that I personally ever saw any madman building a live chat feed with that technique but there's unfortunately nobody and nothing that could have stopped them.

deaddodo 3y ago

This is essentially what they are doing, minus the form frame.

kyle-rb 3y ago

CSS is needed because this app isn't using HTML forms to send the data. That would be easier, but part of the magic here is that in addition to no JavaScript, the page also never reloads. The readme explains how the CSS :active selector is used to detect button presses.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
ComputerGuru 3y ago
I mentioned multipart/x-mixed-replace above and I think it can work here instead of CSS. You never reload the chat history page, just put that in an iframe and use a separate iframe with a form that submits your newest reply. Edit: actually this should work even without mixed replace.
- remram 3y ago
  When the form submits its frame refreshes ("navigates").
  - ComputerGuru 3y ago
    Right but reloading a static html asset (the reply iframe consisting of just a textbox) is basically free. So long as you separate the chat history window and the reply textbox/form into two separate frames, I don’t see the problem.
    - croshan 3y ago
      Using JavaScript is also “basically free”. There’s no problem with either listed approach, GP just seems to consider a method without page reloads as adhering to a harder constraint.

elikoga 3y ago

Implemented here in haskell, didn't even add screenshots back then ^^' https://github.com/elikoga/jsless-chat https://github.com/elikoga/jsless-chat

johngalt2600 3y ago
very cool!

userbinator 3y ago

This wasn't a "dark web" thing in the late 90s, it was widely used. Unfortunately due to the awfulness of search engines today I can't find it now, but I remember there's a PHP script called "moonchat" which was somewhat common and JS-less.

creatonez 3y ago
Recently posted to HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36486109 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36486109

ComputerGuru 3y ago

There’s also multipart/x-mixed-replace for rendering only the latest update (replacing previous content) but iirc Chrome dropped support for that when content type is HTML [0]. [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7349266 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7349266

eyegor 3y ago
I can tell you that it still works in chrome, this method was used by one of my coworkers as a quick and dirty hack until we had time to implement a real solution for data streaming. It worked fine in all major browsers ~2 weeks ago.
- ComputerGuru 3y ago
  I’m not sure what context you were using it in? It still works for non-HTML content types, can be used for mjpeg video streams, etc but you shouldn’t be able to use it to replace the previously rendered HTML contents of a frame.
  - eyegor 3y ago
    Hmm I don't remember if we did dom manipulation in there. It was definitely used for video streaming though. There's a good chance we only used it for mjpeg and canvas shenanigans.

est 3y ago

sam0x17 3y ago

When I was at Kagi I implemented their fallback poly-fill for web sockets that way. Worked great!

javascript_obso 3y ago

Can we please have a code example for this technique or any similar way of not using JavaScript for this feature set? This is very interesting! Thanks!

savolai 3y ago
Chatgpt-4 seems to do fine if you ask it to provide the php. This tech was used in the nineties by a finnish chat site operated by a radio station. I used to go on dates from the site myself. Thought it would be valuable to have this archived in english too https://www.iltalehti.fi/fiidifi/a/2015021119172724 https://www.iltalehti.fi/fiidifi/a/2015021119172724 ”KissFM Chat - do you still remember? For many, KissFM's chat was their first contact with the internet. This is what it looked like back then. KISSFM Mari Pudas Thursday, February 12, 2015 at 10:40 In the mid-1990s, not every home had an internet connection, in fact, it was quite a luxury. But fortunately, there were computers with internet connections in libraries. Under the watchful eye of the librarian, you could use the computer for up to an hour, sometimes just half an hour. There were no Youtubes, not to mention Facebook or Twitter. So what did we do on the internet back then? Of course, we went to KissFM's chat! Kiss FM's chat was founded in 1996, and was initially known as a hotel. Around 1998, the chat site got a brighter, greenish color scheme and the hotel was abandoned. The chat became Chatropol. There you chose a "room" to chat with like-minded people based on your interests. The most popular rooms, cafe, disco, erotic house, and singles bars, were always occupied, as they could only accommodate about a dozen chatters at a time. Then you had to be content with the office building or the hairdresser. But regardless of the name, the conversation was often hilariously fun. Over the years, its popularity waned and Kiss also became Voice. But let's let the former chatters reminisce about Kiss's golden age: My friend and I used to use the names of Finnish schlager stars as our nicknames in the Kiss FM chat. We didn't intend to deceive anyone, we just thought it was a fun joke. Until "Marita Taavitsainen" received a private message thanking her, saying that the new album is wonderful. We politely thanked and that ended the use of real names due to a bout of bad conscience. Ilona I spent time and looked for some company while studying in Tampere at the beginning of the millennium. I enjoyed most in the Tampere section of Kiss FM's chat, where I held a quiz for other chatters - the fastest correct answer gets a point, and ten points to win. My nickname was Joe DiMaggio. The Tampere department also had a nickname, hilleri, and he always said hrrrrrrr when he joined the channel. Others happily welcomed him. I even went on a couple of dates with a girl I met through the chat, but nothing more serious came out of those. Joe -The time when there was no internet at home (even with a modem) and you had to reserve hourly slots from the library for chatting after school... and just when you were having a good conversation with some nice guy, the library lady came to complain and you had to stop. -Choosing rooms based on names, and then they were full! -When some guy tested if I was old enough by asking when my period starts... younger ones wouldn't probably have known how to crack the code ;) Jepa The greatest amusement for teenage girls was to find a boy from the Kiss chat, and we would all respond together. Back then we just exchanged harmless messages, asked about each other's well-being and hobbies. We had no idea if the boy on the other side of the internet existed or not. In middle school, we would sneak into the computer room during breaks to chat or visit that friend who had a computer. Then of course we were nervous that a landline phone call would interrupt the internet connection. Anna I participated in discussions, but unfortunately I don't remember any of the topics. I just thought of the most popular internet fashion words of that time such as "peelo" which described an idiot/troublemaker who doesn't follow netiquette (:D). Oh boy! In middle school (around 1997), I chose ICT as an optional subject. The school had a new fancy computer room, where everyone had their own computers with internet. First, we had to learn touch typing, then we could do what we wanted, i.e., create restless gif animations for our homepages or surf the internet. There wasn't much content on the internet yet - or we didn't know how to find it. But the gates of Kiss FM's chat city were wide open! Initially, I remember the coloring of the site being black-neon green, then the site was renewed and diversified, and the graphic image became city-like. Usernames were of course something like "FlowerGirl82" and the conversation was quite innocent flirting. I guess I learned something from that, but I still wish I had learned that HTML. FlowerGirl82 Late Around the age of 12, we pretended to be a bit older and played like we were looking for company. We sweet-talked for a while until we managed to coax out phone numbers. Then we made prank calls to those numbers. This pattern was repeated numerous times. I'm not proud, but I don't regret it either”

411111111111111 3y ago

classic HN comment. do note the name of the project and ask yourself again, was the only constraint to not use javascript?

Mizza 3y ago

I remember implementing this a long, long time ago for that purpose. It was a novelty then, didn't know it was still being used. https://github.com/Miserlou/OnionChat https://github.com/Miserlou/OnionChat

hnlmorg 3y ago

In the 90s we used to just call them “chat rooms” (or “HTML chat” if we wanted to differentiate for stand alone clients like IRC). I even wrote one myself.

ykonstant 3y ago
I loved them; probably nostalgia, but I was having much more fun with those than today's chatrooms. I also preferred them to IRC for some reason.

buzzier 3y ago

iframe + meta refresh 10s