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Global warming is heavily impacted by animal agriculture. The vegan solution is to stop consuming animals. But why can't we just stop eating bovines, which caus

Global warming is heavily impacted by animal agriculture. The vegan solution is to stop consuming animals. But why can't we just stop eating bovines, which cause 80% of those emissions? Why can't we switch to chicken? Why can't we eat sardines? Why can't we modify industrial ag diets so they produce less enteric fermentation? Why can't we have carbon taxes so that the costs of remediation are priced into the meat? If you ask the vegan, none of that works...We MuSt ImEdIaTeLy CeAsE aLl HuMaN cOnSuMpTiOn Of AnImAlS!!!!!!!!! It's the same here. It's not good enough to better regulate fishing methods that minimize bycatch. It's not good enough to tax and penalize bycatch. It's not good enough to shift consumption to small pelagic forage fish that have negligible bycatch. It's not good enough to shift to farmed fish, or freshwater fish. Nothing is ever good enough...we must immediately discard human diets and cultures that have evolved over hundreds of thousands of years, and if we're not willing to do that, we obviously hate dolphins. Can you sense an eye-roll here? So here is my elaboration: vegans start from the end goal and then work backwards to find any reason to justify it, no matter how disconnected from reality it is. And it is always the same...the only way to solve every single problem on the planet is to stop consuming animal products. It lacks any form of intelligent thought or nuance, and it is an extremely disingenuous form of argument, so it gets the response it deserves: derision and dismissal. Come back when you want to have an actual conversation.

myshpa 3y ago
> If you ask the vegan, none of that works Yes, because there are now 8 billion people, and nature is on the brink of collapse. > It's not good enough to tax and penalize bycatch There are 5 mil. fishing boats, there is nobody who could reliably monitor them. Doesn't work. See Seaspiracy movie for an example. > vegans start from the end goal I became a vegan primarily due to environmental reasons. It's a logical conclusion when studying the issues of climate change, the anthropocene, deforestation and biodiversity loss. It's a complicated problem, and you would have to study the issue yourself, not enough space here. You'd have to read a lot of text that goes against your beliefs. Not many people are able or ready to do that. Many rather prefer to stay ignorant (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance). Some links to get you started (more articles and papers @ https://www.plantbaseddata.org https://www.plantbaseddata.org): Which Diet Has the Least Environmental Impact on Our Planet? A Systematic Review of Vegan, Vegetarian and Omnivorous Diets https://www.mdpi.com/2071-1050/11/15/4110/htm https://www.mdpi.com/2071-1050/11/15/4110/htm How Compatible Are Western European Dietary Patterns to Climate Targets? Accounting for Uncertainty of Life Cycle Assessments by Applying a Probabilistic Approach https://www.mdpi.com/2071-1050/14/21/14449 https://www.mdpi.com/2071-1050/14/21/14449 Biodiversity conservation: The key is reducing meat consumption https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26231772/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26231772/ Livestock and climate change: what if the key actors in climate change are... cows, pigs, and chickens? https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Livestock-and-climate-change%3A-what-if-the-key-in-Goodland-Anhang/6704c7a0777c82357704d82b9ae8007c1197cb07?p2df https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Livestock-and-climate-... Without Changing Diets, Agriculture Alone Could Produce Enough Emissions to Surpass 1.5°C of Global Warming https://www.wri.org/insights/without-changing-diets-agriculture-alone-could-produce-enough-emissions-surpass-15degc https://www.wri.org/insights/without-changing-diets-agricult... Agriculture production as a major driver of the Earth system exceeding planetary boundaries https://www.researchgate.net/publication/320356605_Agriculture_production_as_a_major_driver_of_the_Earth_system_exceeding_planetary_boundaries https://www.researchgate.net/publication/320356605_Agricultu... Avoiding meat and dairy is ‘single biggest way’ to reduce your impact on Earth https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/may/31/avoiding-meat-and-dairy-is-single-biggest-way-to-reduce-your-impact-on-earth https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/may/31/avoiding... If the world adopted a plant-based diet we would reduce global agricultural land use from 4 to 1 billion hectares https://ourworldindata.org/land-use-diets https://ourworldindata.org/land-use-diets https://ourworldindata.org/land-use https://ourworldindata.org/land-use https://ourworldindata.org/biodiversity https://ourworldindata.org/biodiversity > Come back when you want to have an actual conversation About how you want to keep eating meat even if it means total destruction of the environment? Do you have studies that show it's sustainable? Studies not paid for by meat & dairy industry? Inside big beef’s climate messaging machine: confuse, defend and downplay https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/may/03/beef-industry-public-relations-messaging-machine https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/may/03/beef-ind... Why Right-Wingers Are So Afraid of Men Eating Vegetables https://newrepublic.com/article/171781/meat-culture-war-crickets https://newrepublic.com/article/171781/meat-culture-war-cric... The meat industry is borrowing tactics from Big Oil to obfuscate the truth about climate change https://www.salon.com/2022/11/11/the-meat-industry-is-borrowing-tactics-from-big-oil-to-obfuscate-the-truth-about-climate-change/ https://www.salon.com/2022/11/11/the-meat-industry-is-borrow... The Big Beef With the Meat Industry’s Advertising Tactics https://medium.com/@jodi_64782/the-big-beef-with-the-meat-industrys-advertising-tactics-8de905010660 https://medium.com/@jodi_64782/the-big-beef-with-the-meat-in... If you have the facts, bring it on. Don't talk to me about culture, though (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7JE8j5Ncmw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7JE8j5Ncmw).
- pharmakom 3y ago
  The problem I have with this argument for individuals is that adopting these behaviours has negligible impact on an individual scale. Put another way: if the world won’t change, why should I?
  - myshpa 3y ago
    I get that adopting sustainable vegan behaviors may not seem like a big deal on your own. But even small changes can make a difference. When fewer people consume fish/meat, it motivates politicians to take action on environmental issues. By cutting back on consumption, we can push politicians to implement environmental regulations. In a capitalist system, our choices as consumers shape the rules. Your actions matter, benefiting non-consumed beings. By inspiring others and setting an example, anyone can contribute to a larger movement for a more sustainable and healthier planet. Veganism is the fastest growing social justice and environmental movement.
  - 9dev 3y ago
    The answer is twofold. For one, you already do things that don’t have a direct, measurable impact, such as voting: you do that because it matches your beliefs. As soon as you make up your mind about something, it will become part of your moral compass and influence your decisions. If you happen to conclude that intelligent beings deserve to live (and do so with a minimum amount of dignity), it would be disingenuous to your own morals to keep on eating them or tolerate their abuse. The second part of the answer is just a meta-observation: at the end of the day, nobody but yourself can’t judge you. At some point I got to value being able to look myself in the mirror, and part of that is being honest with myself.
- evandale 3y ago
  Nature is not on the brink of collapse because of 8 billion people and human overpopulation is a scaremongering tactic that should have died 30 years ago. It's hard to continue reading your comment with such easily falsifiable information in your first paragraph. The Earth and nature will be totally fine in the end. The reality is animals provide a way of consuming resources efficiently that, sure, can be consumed by eating other plant based things but it's not as efficient as eating flesh. For me, emotional arguments about why I shouldn't eat animals don't sway me very much because of the undeniable fact that we're the apex predator on Earth. I reject any moral argument that we're supposed to respect nature and other species because of our intelligence. I don't believe we have a responsibility to other species and if we can get by in the world by enslaving all the animals and killing the rest that we can't I'm perfectly fine with that. We're just as natural as everything else on the Earth and I think it's weird to place ourselves outside the scope of nature or what's natural because we're more intelligent than everything else.

myshpa 3y ago

> If you ask the vegan, none of that works Yes, because there are now 8 billion people, and nature is on the brink of collapse. > It's not good enough to tax and penalize bycatch There are 5 mil. fishing boats, there is nobody who could reliably monitor them. Doesn't work. See Seaspiracy movie for an example. > vegans start from the end goal I became a vegan primarily due to environmental reasons. It's a logical conclusion when studying the issues of climate change, the anthropocene, deforestation and biodiversity loss. It's a complicated problem, and you would have to study the issue yourself, not enough space here. You'd have to read a lot of text that goes against your beliefs. Not many people are able or ready to do that. Many rather prefer to stay ignorant (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance). Some links to get you started (more articles and papers @ https://www.plantbaseddata.org https://www.plantbaseddata.org): Which Diet Has the Least Environmental Impact on Our Planet? A Systematic Review of Vegan, Vegetarian and Omnivorous Diets https://www.mdpi.com/2071-1050/11/15/4110/htm https://www.mdpi.com/2071-1050/11/15/4110/htm How Compatible Are Western European Dietary Patterns to Climate Targets? Accounting for Uncertainty of Life Cycle Assessments by Applying a Probabilistic Approach https://www.mdpi.com/2071-1050/14/21/14449 https://www.mdpi.com/2071-1050/14/21/14449 Biodiversity conservation: The key is reducing meat consumption https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26231772/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26231772/ Livestock and climate change: what if the key actors in climate change are... cows, pigs, and chickens? https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Livestock-and-climate-change%3A-what-if-the-key-in-Goodland-Anhang/6704c7a0777c82357704d82b9ae8007c1197cb07?p2df https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Livestock-and-climate-... Without Changing Diets, Agriculture Alone Could Produce Enough Emissions to Surpass 1.5°C of Global Warming https://www.wri.org/insights/without-changing-diets-agriculture-alone-could-produce-enough-emissions-surpass-15degc https://www.wri.org/insights/without-changing-diets-agricult... Agriculture production as a major driver of the Earth system exceeding planetary boundaries https://www.researchgate.net/publication/320356605_Agriculture_production_as_a_major_driver_of_the_Earth_system_exceeding_planetary_boundaries https://www.researchgate.net/publication/320356605_Agricultu... Avoiding meat and dairy is ‘single biggest way’ to reduce your impact on Earth https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/may/31/avoiding-meat-and-dairy-is-single-biggest-way-to-reduce-your-impact-on-earth https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/may/31/avoiding... If the world adopted a plant-based diet we would reduce global agricultural land use from 4 to 1 billion hectares https://ourworldindata.org/land-use-diets https://ourworldindata.org/land-use-diets https://ourworldindata.org/land-use https://ourworldindata.org/land-use https://ourworldindata.org/biodiversity https://ourworldindata.org/biodiversity > Come back when you want to have an actual conversation About how you want to keep eating meat even if it means total destruction of the environment? Do you have studies that show it's sustainable? Studies not paid for by meat & dairy industry? Inside big beef’s climate messaging machine: confuse, defend and downplay https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/may/03/beef-industry-public-relations-messaging-machine https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/may/03/beef-ind... Why Right-Wingers Are So Afraid of Men Eating Vegetables https://newrepublic.com/article/171781/meat-culture-war-crickets https://newrepublic.com/article/171781/meat-culture-war-cric... The meat industry is borrowing tactics from Big Oil to obfuscate the truth about climate change https://www.salon.com/2022/11/11/the-meat-industry-is-borrowing-tactics-from-big-oil-to-obfuscate-the-truth-about-climate-change/ https://www.salon.com/2022/11/11/the-meat-industry-is-borrow... The Big Beef With the Meat Industry’s Advertising Tactics https://medium.com/@jodi_64782/the-big-beef-with-the-meat-industrys-advertising-tactics-8de905010660 https://medium.com/@jodi_64782/the-big-beef-with-the-meat-in... If you have the facts, bring it on. Don't talk to me about culture, though (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7JE8j5Ncmw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7JE8j5Ncmw).

pharmakom 3y ago
The problem I have with this argument for individuals is that adopting these behaviours has negligible impact on an individual scale. Put another way: if the world won’t change, why should I?
- myshpa 3y ago
  I get that adopting sustainable vegan behaviors may not seem like a big deal on your own. But even small changes can make a difference. When fewer people consume fish/meat, it motivates politicians to take action on environmental issues. By cutting back on consumption, we can push politicians to implement environmental regulations. In a capitalist system, our choices as consumers shape the rules. Your actions matter, benefiting non-consumed beings. By inspiring others and setting an example, anyone can contribute to a larger movement for a more sustainable and healthier planet. Veganism is the fastest growing social justice and environmental movement.
- 9dev 3y ago
  The answer is twofold. For one, you already do things that don’t have a direct, measurable impact, such as voting: you do that because it matches your beliefs. As soon as you make up your mind about something, it will become part of your moral compass and influence your decisions. If you happen to conclude that intelligent beings deserve to live (and do so with a minimum amount of dignity), it would be disingenuous to your own morals to keep on eating them or tolerate their abuse. The second part of the answer is just a meta-observation: at the end of the day, nobody but yourself can’t judge you. At some point I got to value being able to look myself in the mirror, and part of that is being honest with myself.
evandale 3y ago
Nature is not on the brink of collapse because of 8 billion people and human overpopulation is a scaremongering tactic that should have died 30 years ago. It's hard to continue reading your comment with such easily falsifiable information in your first paragraph. The Earth and nature will be totally fine in the end. The reality is animals provide a way of consuming resources efficiently that, sure, can be consumed by eating other plant based things but it's not as efficient as eating flesh. For me, emotional arguments about why I shouldn't eat animals don't sway me very much because of the undeniable fact that we're the apex predator on Earth. I reject any moral argument that we're supposed to respect nature and other species because of our intelligence. I don't believe we have a responsibility to other species and if we can get by in the world by enslaving all the animals and killing the rest that we can't I'm perfectly fine with that. We're just as natural as everything else on the Earth and I think it's weird to place ourselves outside the scope of nature or what's natural because we're more intelligent than everything else.