4 ms·

Some of those are religious issues, but none are moral issues.

zogrodea 3y ago
It really depends on where your morality comes from because historical perceptions of morality, in different places, have varied wildly. Some of those cultures reasonably take morality from religion. Your phrase that "none are moral issues" really just means "none of those conflict with whatever morality I hold". Here is a quote I like from Descartes. "But I believed that I had already given sufficient time to languages, and likewise to the reading of the writings of the ancients, to their histories and fables. For to hold converse with those of other ages and to travel, are almost the same thing. It is useful to know something of the manners of different nations, that we may be enabled to form a more correct judgment regarding our own, and be prevented from thinking that everything contrary to our customs is ridiculous and irrational, a conclusion usually come to by those whose experience has been limited to their own country."
- hairofadog 3y ago
  I take your point, but by that standard the person who posted the stats may as well have said Wearing pants increased from X% → Y% Eating pork increased from X% → Y% Drawing pictures increased from X% → Y% Reading Harry Potter increased from X% → Y% Using the stove on Saturday increased from X% → Y% See? These stats prove morality is in decline! I'd argue that the conclusion to be drawn is that morality is so subjective that the very idea of a moral decline is nonsense, not that these numbers prove a moral decline. (I actually do think a moral decline is happening, but in my view it's more along the lines of increases in tribalism, factory farming, militarization of police, the industrial prison complex, wealth inequality, etc.)
  - zogrodea 3y ago
    Whoops, I didn't mean to sound like a moral anti-realist (who believes what one person takes as morality is equally valid as another's) but re-reading my comment may give that impression. It might indeed be nonsense to talk about a moral decline with someone who disagrees with the moral values held by oneself. It seems the only productive thing to talk about between two such people would be the reasons they disagree on their values and which values are right, and I'm not sure HN is the best place for those conversations. So I just felt people who agreed that those original statistics indicated a moral decline and those who disagreed were talking past each other and no discussion of quality would come from it, unless the root disagreement were addressed. Apologies if I spoke out of turn.
    - hairofadog 3y ago
      All good here - you made me realize I had assumed a fixed definition of morality (coincidentally, mine), which obviously isn’t right. You changed my perspective.
    - vacuity 3y ago
      I wholly agree with what you've stated in these comments about morality but I'd like to expound on moral relativism and my thoughts a bit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_relativism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_relativism ("moral anti-realist" == "meta-ethical relativism"?) > This view contrasts with moral universalism, which argues that, even though well-intentioned persons disagree...there is still a meaningful sense in which an action could be more "moral" (morally preferable) than another Absolute moral relativism sounds terrible, but I also don't like the idea of being very constrained in my beliefs and actions. I don't think we can truly consider anything other than mathematical constructs to be objective, but I think that there are a few moral values (violence bad, blah blah) that all societies should follow, and everything else is fair game. In effect, there would be a few core principles that all other enforceable moral principles (which are tantamount to laws) are derived from, and everything else is to be judged in the court of society or not at all. There would also be a provision to allow units of organization (homes, businesses) to set reasonable contracts to uphold additional moral values. I think an escape hatch along those lines is most flexible without possibly violating the core values. I came up with some of that on the spot. Feel free to express (polite!) criticism.

It really depends on where your morality comes from because historical perceptions of morality, in different places, have varied wildly. Some of those cultures reasonably take morality from religion. Your phrase that "none are moral issues" really just means "none of those conflict with whatever morality I hold". Here is a quote I like from Descartes. "But I believed that I had already given sufficient time to languages, and likewise to the reading of the writings of the ancients, to their histories and fables. For to hold converse with those of other ages and to travel, are almost the same thing. It is useful to know something of the manners of different nations, that we may be enabled to form a more correct judgment regarding our own, and be prevented from thinking that everything contrary to our customs is ridiculous and irrational, a conclusion usually come to by those whose experience has been limited to their own country."

hairofadog 3y ago
I take your point, but by that standard the person who posted the stats may as well have said Wearing pants increased from X% → Y% Eating pork increased from X% → Y% Drawing pictures increased from X% → Y% Reading Harry Potter increased from X% → Y% Using the stove on Saturday increased from X% → Y% See? These stats prove morality is in decline! I'd argue that the conclusion to be drawn is that morality is so subjective that the very idea of a moral decline is nonsense, not that these numbers prove a moral decline. (I actually do think a moral decline is happening, but in my view it's more along the lines of increases in tribalism, factory farming, militarization of police, the industrial prison complex, wealth inequality, etc.)
- zogrodea 3y ago
  Whoops, I didn't mean to sound like a moral anti-realist (who believes what one person takes as morality is equally valid as another's) but re-reading my comment may give that impression. It might indeed be nonsense to talk about a moral decline with someone who disagrees with the moral values held by oneself. It seems the only productive thing to talk about between two such people would be the reasons they disagree on their values and which values are right, and I'm not sure HN is the best place for those conversations. So I just felt people who agreed that those original statistics indicated a moral decline and those who disagreed were talking past each other and no discussion of quality would come from it, unless the root disagreement were addressed. Apologies if I spoke out of turn.
  - hairofadog 3y ago
    All good here - you made me realize I had assumed a fixed definition of morality (coincidentally, mine), which obviously isn’t right. You changed my perspective.
  - vacuity 3y ago
    I wholly agree with what you've stated in these comments about morality but I'd like to expound on moral relativism and my thoughts a bit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_relativism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_relativism ("moral anti-realist" == "meta-ethical relativism"?) > This view contrasts with moral universalism, which argues that, even though well-intentioned persons disagree...there is still a meaningful sense in which an action could be more "moral" (morally preferable) than another Absolute moral relativism sounds terrible, but I also don't like the idea of being very constrained in my beliefs and actions. I don't think we can truly consider anything other than mathematical constructs to be objective, but I think that there are a few moral values (violence bad, blah blah) that all societies should follow, and everything else is fair game. In effect, there would be a few core principles that all other enforceable moral principles (which are tantamount to laws) are derived from, and everything else is to be judged in the court of society or not at all. There would also be a provision to allow units of organization (homes, businesses) to set reasonable contracts to uphold additional moral values. I think an escape hatch along those lines is most flexible without possibly violating the core values. I came up with some of that on the spot. Feel free to express (polite!) criticism.